puddleduck
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Post by puddleduck on Apr 26, 2018 14:33:45 GMT
Hi all, I am sorry that your concerns have not been answered in a clear fashion. The change is policy is something that lenders will have queries about and we as a team should be answering them for you. I acknowledge all the feedback provided so far and rest assure I'll get answers by tomorrow AM. While I don't normally work within the investor relations team but as an active lender on other platforms and being passionate about P2P in general, these are all valid points raised. Kind regards, Hari CTO Kuflink Thanks hari - particularly welcome & surprising in light of the recent reservation filling so quickly - perhaps the marketing of the 'non-change' went down better elsewhere. My main gripe, based on how seemingly indisputable it is (the PF distrust is more subjective, but firmly believed by most folk here, me included) is that previously the coverage was 25%, i.e. in a 100K loan, kuflink put down 20K, we put down 80K - 20:80 is 25%. Personally had you halved the skin to 10% I would have still invested (albeit drastically less), but as it stands, you are offering half market rate with no added value for me from a PF of sorts that has been terribly explained & at best sounds like a half (or 20%) hearted fair weather friend! Make the PF 100% 'coverage' and I still would rather have a 10% skin. I feel strongly that those arguing passionately that the coverage is the same were badly out of their depth at best! Perhaps safest that they went to ground. I need the 1 tranche skinned, future tranches not situation explained in black & white - if I don't like the answer (i.e. if it was mis-sold) I want my money out! With me that is the smallest amount, but you need to be aware that others may be in the same boat for 4 or 5 figures! Thanks again hari for posting & I hope you can help. My intention above was to try & help summarise my position - with money at stake, passions run high! I think the reason the loan filled was that it was a nice small loan, 60k or so nothing controversial, and with a credible valuation due to the recent auction purchase. I didn't invest - nothing to do with the loss of the 20% in this case, but I think regardless of that, 6.25% was too low. If Kuflink can get anyway with paying investors 6.25% for bridging finance, with non of their own money in the pot, it'll work out well for them, if not us.
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jnm21
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Post by jnm21 on Apr 26, 2018 14:56:03 GMT
puddleduck your first paragraph had me thinking I missed out, but your second confirmed I didn't!
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puddleduck
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Post by puddleduck on Apr 26, 2018 16:03:26 GMT
puddleduck your first paragraph had me thinking I missed out, but your second confirmed I didn't! I think it was a nice safe loan, generally in an auction if someone was willing to pay £xxx, it means there is an underbidder willing to pay £1k less, so assuming no shills (and that is NOT always a safe assumption..!) you get a pretty good feeling for the true market value. I'd been much happier in that than a multi-tranch property loan. I would imagine that the borrower is paying somewhere between 15-18% for that loan, and likely paid a arrangement fees somewhere around the £1.5 to £2k mark, to give the 6.25% a bit of context. At those rates though, I could easily see a repayment within 3 to 4 months or as soon as a mortgage can be arranged, this is very unlikely to go the full 12 months.
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Post by kuflink on Apr 26, 2018 16:21:10 GMT
Thank you for your patience whilst we reviewed your comments. We welcome your feedback and would like to thank you for your support and for being a part of Kuflink. Without our community of investors we wouldn’t be where we are today – one of the fastest growing property-backed P2P lenders in the UK.
We are successful because we cater for our customers. As per investor demand we have replaced our 20% stake with a 20% first loss, providing increased availability to our investors. Kuflink is one of a handful of platforms that has zero investor losses. We are constantly investing further into our infrastructure to stay ahead of the curve.
Tomorrow we celebrate our 1-year anniversary since we became authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. Our investors have never lost a penny and all our opportunities are backed by UK property!
If you have any further questions, please get in touch with us via email at hello@kuflink.co.uk.
Kind regards
Narinder Khattoare
CEO
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jnm21
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Post by jnm21 on Apr 26, 2018 16:36:11 GMT
kuflink, best suggestion is that you delete that post, actually read what has been said, LISTEN, think & try again! I am angry!
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jnm21
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Post by jnm21 on Apr 26, 2018 17:13:06 GMT
Now for a more considered reply - now that the anger has been replaced by shock!
"Thank you for your patience whilst we reviewed your comments. We welcome your feedback and would like to thank you for your support and for being a part of Kuflink. Without our community of investors we wouldn’t be where we are today – one of the fastest growing property-backed P2P lenders in the UK."
Meh! A post from the CEO is welcome & probably needed. That opening is fine, but few on here who want smoke blown anywhere. May I ask the criteria for the last boast (without evidence, it comes across as arrogant self praise).
"We are successful because we cater for our customers. As per investor demand we have replaced our 20% stake with a 20% first loss, providing increased availability to our investors. Kuflink is one of a handful of platforms that has zero investor losses. We are constantly investing further into our infrastructure to stay ahead of the curve."
Oh dear no! I have lost count of how many warnings have been given in the last week not to trot out the never lost a penny line! Massive mistake. Could you confirm how many investors have asked (or demanded) the removal of the 20% first investment? If any are here, please do post your reasons. The change will certainly provide increased availability, you are right on that, even if you badly misjudged how much.
"Tomorrow we celebrate our 1-year anniversary since we became authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. Our investors have never lost a penny and all our opportunities are backed by UK property!"
There that ill fated line is again.
"If you have any further questions, please get in touch with us via email at hello@kuflink.co.uk."
What about the ones already asked? The reduction in coverage from 20:80 to 20:100? What happens if a loan with a 20% skin 1st tranche & later tranche with the new arrangement suffers a loss? Where can we find fine detail on the new guarantee?
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Apr 26, 2018 17:52:39 GMT
Now for a more considered reply - now that the anger has been replaced by shock! "Thank you for your patience whilst we reviewed your comments. We welcome your feedback and would like to thank you for your support and for being a part of Kuflink. Without our community of investors we wouldn’t be where we are today – one of the fastest growing property-backed P2P lenders in the UK." Meh! A post from the CEO is welcome & probably needed. That opening is fine, but few on here who want smoke blown anywhere. May I ask the criteria for the last boast (without evidence, it comes across as arrogant self praise). "We are successful because we cater for our customers. As per investor demand we have replaced our 20% stake with a 20% first loss, providing increased availability to our investors. Kuflink is one of a handful of platforms that has zero investor losses. We are constantly investing further into our infrastructure to stay ahead of the curve." Oh dear no! I have lost count of how many warnings have been given in the last week not to trot out the never lost a penny line! Massive mistake. Could you confirm how many investors have asked (or demanded) the removal of the 20% first investment? If any are here, please do post your reasons. The change will certainly provide increased availability, you are right on that, even if you badly misjudged how much. "Tomorrow we celebrate our 1-year anniversary since we became authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. Our investors have never lost a penny and all our opportunities are backed by UK property!" There that ill fated line is again. "If you have any further questions, please get in touch with us via email at hello@kuflink.co.uk." What about the ones already asked? The reduction in coverage from 20:80 to 20:100? What happens if a loan with a 20% skin 1st tranche & later tranche with the new arrangement suffers a loss? Where can we find fine detail on the new guarantee? jnm21 - you're (we're) wasting our time asking pertinent questions. Questions (off the top of my head) which were asked -
a) Is the 20% PF going into a segregated account totally separate from the main KF company funds. b) How is the PF going to be funded. c) Under what circumstances would the PF be utilised - or would the can-kicking be introduced to avoid payouts. d) How would the lack of KF actually not having skin in the game affect the loan quality. e) In the absence of physical KF investment, would the rates be increased especially regarding DFL loans.
There were others but this nonsense about no one having lost a penny is as per other platforms who have been established longer than KL - professional can-kickers. Absolutely do anything, spin any yarn to keep the 'no investor has ever lost a penny' junk.
KL will IMO just remain small fry. I hope they continue until my investments repay in full but their answer, and coming from the CEO has evaded the questions. Maybe these platform reps were politicians in a previous life!!!
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jnm21
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Post by jnm21 on Apr 26, 2018 18:07:17 GMT
bugs4me is "you're (we're) wasting our time asking pertinent questions" why there has been radio silence from others? I thought it was either they fell off their seats & were recovering before posting or that the drop the bombshell while they are all driving home/sorting dinner timing had worked perfectly. I had honestly expected pages of posts by now. I was excited to see the response, excited to see the responder, but excited (in an angry way) as I read!
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Apr 26, 2018 18:45:16 GMT
bugs4me is "you're (we're) wasting our time asking pertinent questions" why there has been radio silence from others? I thought it was either they fell off their seats & were recovering before posting or that the drop the bombshell while they are all driving home/sorting dinner timing had worked perfectly. I had honestly expected pages of posts by now. I was excited to see the response, excited to see the responder, but excited (in an angry way) as I read! I asked a polite question on another thread, different platform regarding the claim on their own website about goodness knows how many years the team had in P2P lending. A 'please could you clarify this claim' question.
Total platform AWOL to that question even though up until that point they had been fairly active. No doubt they will attract some funding but until they stop this hype and BS they will just be a bit player in the market. Surely they can see that the investor of 2018 is far more inquisitive/informed/sophisticated than the investor of 2013. Or maybe they are just too lazy to read the many justified negative threads littered on this forum
I always do platform DD before even looking at their loan offerings. You'd be surprised what turns up and how certain individuals pass the FCA 'fit and proper' person test is beyond me - but that's the FCA for you.
Edit - back on topic - I doubt if you will receive a further response from KL. They dug a hole and cannot get out of it.
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Post by Ace on Apr 26, 2018 19:08:09 GMT
Hi all, I am sorry that your concerns have not been answered in a clear fashion. The change is policy is something that lenders will have queries about and we as a team should be answering them for you. I acknowledge all the feedback provided so far and rest assure I'll get answers by tomorrow AM. While I don't normally work within the investor relations team but as an active lender on other platforms and being passionate about P2P in general, these are all valid points raised. Kind regards, Hari CTO Kuflink Hari, your post gave me great hope that Kuflink had recognised that they had dropped the ball here and would address the concerns that have been asked in this, and other threads/platforms. However, if the post today from Narinder is supposed to satisfy the explanations and clarifications that have been sought, all hope is now lost. Kuflink seem to have gone from an engaging platform with a unique USP, where lenders were prepared to accept lower rates from, what appeared to be, a more professional and trusted platform with skin in the game, to another also-ran with an unexplained PF. Rolling out the "no losses yet" flannel, and failing to add any explanation of the new PF shows that Kuflink have either not read, or, failed to grasp the comments made. Frankly, I am now embarrassed that I have referred Kuflink to friends and family. I wish you luck for the future, not least because I have investments with you, but I can't justify sending any further funds your way.
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jnm21
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Post by jnm21 on Apr 26, 2018 20:17:07 GMT
Well said AceOne point re: "if the post today from Narinder is supposed to satisfy the explanations and clarifications that have been sought" If the answer to that is yes, Narinder (and the compliance team at kuflink) either have a mental age of 3 or think the investors here do! Not one question was addressed satisfactorily for my money! In fact not one was addressed with anything other than meaningless platitudes.
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carolus
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Post by carolus on Apr 26, 2018 23:14:52 GMT
Thank you for your patience whilst we reviewed your comments. We welcome your feedback and would like to thank you for your support and for being a part of Kuflink. Without our community of investors we wouldn’t be where we are today – one of the fastest growing property-backed P2P lenders in the UK. We are successful because we cater for our customers. As per investor demand we have replaced our 20% stake with a 20% first loss, providing increased availability to our investors. Kuflink is one of a handful of platforms that has zero investor losses. We are constantly investing further into our infrastructure to stay ahead of the curve. Tomorrow we celebrate our 1-year anniversary since we became authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. Our investors have never lost a penny and all our opportunities are backed by UK property! If you have any further questions, please get in touch with us via email at hello@kuflink.co.uk. Kind regards Narinder Khattoare CEO I'm pretty shocked that this is the extent of the response. You haven't engaged in any meaningful way with any investor questions or concerns. There's still no information available about the provision fund either here or on your website. In fact, there's barely any information about the fact that the protection has changed at all on the website. I'm rather concerned that it was felt appropriate to start launching loans under the new structure without this sort of information being available. I think others have summarised the key questions already. I certainly wouldn't consider investing any further in the platform without this sort of information, and I'm rapidly losing faith that we will get it.
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jnm21
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Post by jnm21 on Apr 26, 2018 23:56:37 GMT
I find it funny that they described it like a PF (email & here), yet on their site it is called and represented as a guarantee. In my experience, platforms emphasise that a PF does not provide a guarantee (e.g. RS invest.ratesetter.com/invest/investing-with-us/ says "The Provision Fund has a 100% track record, with every investor receiving back every penny they invested, but it does not provide a guarantee.") I think they may have spent more time on the fancy shield logo (https://www.kuflink.co.uk/invest-how-it-works/) than they did on the detail of what exactly it is & how it actually works. I certainly hope they spent more time on the shield logo than they did on the last response here! They must be pretty sure of it (or not have a compliance department) to describe it as "We’re proud to be the only platform in the UK to cover 20% of every loan on a first-loss basis. This guarantee reduces the risk exposure to investors, boosting your confidence as well as your savings!" To me that implies (i.e. sells) that they have a 100% certainty that the coverage will not be affected by a run of defaults (i.e. there is zero chance that the funds will run dry or that if they do they will make good). Perhaps there is an insurance backing? Perhaps 20% of the value of each loan is going to be held in a segregated account (though I think not)? It must be good - so good I'd be shouting the details from the rooftops! Come on kuflink, spell it out - we are all ears!
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puddleduck
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Post by puddleduck on Apr 28, 2018 7:48:50 GMT
Well after that in my view from the CEO which is effectively sticking two fingers up to us, it prompted to me look at Assetz Capital manual lending - very little under 7% in property, an SM (which is slow, but seems to work, more or less), so money that would have gone into Kuflink going forward it now going there.
I'm not a mushroon, and don't expect to be fed... [too be continued]
When defaults come in - and they will - as far as I can't see if they want to offer a 20% First loss Guarantee then that you have to have a PF topped up by 20% for each loan,assuming worse case scenario in which all loans default. Past performance not being a guide to future performance.
Honestly, if they'd said, look we want to expand, we want to be doing multi-tranch multi-million pound development loans and we can no longer front up 20% I'd understood - I can't see how they CAN front up 20% for a £3 million loan really. But be honest - don't fall into the trap of feeding people rubbish, we are not stupid, and I find it offensive you think we are stupid enough to swallow it.
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jnm21
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Post by jnm21 on Apr 28, 2018 10:47:02 GMT
Don't be silly puddleduck - kuflink has already answered your concerns! LOL In all seriousness I agree with what you said. So a lesser cover then! I think they will still cover the same but haven't been clear enough in the wording. 20% first loss is a meaningless statement as I don't know what it means and I trained in accountancy and have a degree in economics, so I'm not stupid. Hello, The change to our proposition provides you with the same protection against losses that you have always had. The difference is that we no longer co-invest 20% upfront. You would only feel the true benefit of our 20% co-investment if a loss were to occur, and none of our investors have ever lost a penny to date. The concept of covering 20% first loss is what our USP has always been centered around - this is the purpose of the 20% stake. It is important to highlight that not every single loan on our platform is going to go into default, this is highly unlikely, and so having a 20% stake in every opportunity is not required – those funds can be used to increase our loan portfolio and thus the number of opportunities on our platform. We can still provide the same guarantee to our investors in the form of 20% loss protection without the need to set aside 20% of every loan amount, but rather ensure that our provision fund is substantial enough to cover losses based on past performance of our loans. Thank you Rachel
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