r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Nov 18, 2018 19:37:56 GMT
All this talk about " Pence in the Pound", why? Remember this is a public site, read by BDO and The FCA undoubtedly. For me, I expect a full return of Capital with some Interest as a minimum. Collateral was a profitable company and there's interest rolling in all the time, or there should be. Collateral didn't go into Administration due to the usual, normal circumstances (insolvency), there's money in the coffers, and being topped up all the time, so why the hell this talk of expecting losses? Well, for starters, their biggest loan was against an asset which is an unfinished building and now appears to have been untouched in any meaningful way for some considerable time. I think you know better than most ozboy about the veracity of in-progress valuations when the progress stops. Not to say we shouldn't be expecting BDO to do a thorough job and that the FCA should be held to account for their part in this sorry affair of course.
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Monetus
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Post by Monetus on Nov 18, 2018 20:14:56 GMT
Monetus i think you are doing a grand job and appreciate you giving up your free time to help us all which leads me onto the next question, I understand there where several of you voted in to form a creditors committee for the investors but how come its you alone that seems to be carrying the can for all this. What is the rest of the committee doing and why are they not feeding back info or have you been nominated spokesman for the rest of them. Thanks tommytaylorCommittee members don't have any responsibility to report back to anyone and I'm definitely not any kind of spokesperson for the Committee. I believe some of the other members were previously posters on this forum but were banned for some reason. I'm simply an investor in the same boat as many of you here with a significant amount of my own money on the line who'd like to see as much of it returned as possible. As an investor I completely understand that it's frustrating to not know what's going on so I'm committed to keeping the forum as informed as I possibly can (of course within the boundaries of the NDA that I signed and without saying anything that may be harmful or jeopardise recovery in any way).
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tommytaylor
P2P - The new wild west
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Post by tommytaylor on Nov 19, 2018 10:05:50 GMT
All this talk about " Pence in the Pound", why? Remember this is a public site, read by BDO and The FCA undoubtedly. For me, I expect a full return of Capital with some Interest as a minimum. Collateral was a profitable company and there's interest rolling in all the time, or there should be. Collateral didn't go into Administration due to the usual, normal circumstances (insolvency), there's money in the coffers, and being topped up all the time, so why the hell this talk of expecting losses? Ozboy. Totally agree here. It drives me daft when i here we will be lucky to get 50% of out capital back. I cant see any reason why we should not get most if not all of our money back on this one.
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tommytaylor
P2P - The new wild west
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Post by tommytaylor on Nov 19, 2018 10:07:38 GMT
Monetus i think you are doing a grand job and appreciate you giving up your free time to help us all which leads me onto the next question, I understand there where several of you voted in to form a creditors committee for the investors but how come its you alone that seems to be carrying the can for all this. What is the rest of the committee doing and why are they not feeding back info or have you been nominated spokesman for the rest of them. Thanks tommytaylor Committee members don't have any responsibility to report back to anyone and I'm definitely not any kind of spokesperson for the Committee. I believe some of the other members were previously posters on this forum but were banned for some reason. I'm simply an investor in the same boat as many of you here with a significant amount of my own money on the line who'd like to see as much of it returned as possible. As an investor I completely understand that it's frustrating to not know what's going on so I'm committed to keeping the forum as informed as I possibly can (of course within the boundaries of the NDA that I signed and without saying anything that may be harmful or jeopardise recovery in any way). Well all i can say to that is hats off to you sir. Keep up the good work
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averageguy
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Post by averageguy on Nov 19, 2018 10:34:53 GMT
Monetus if the forthcomming update does not indicate a timescale could you please ask for some sort of indication of a timescale for at least a partial recovery? Not asking for exact dates and times but I really would like some idea of a probable endpoint. I think I can speak for everyone when I say that we'd all like to know this. This question was asked in the first meeting and I have no doubt it will be asked again in this next one. However, having seen a line-by-line breakdown of the loan book (covered by NDA) in the first meeting, I think it's absolutely impossible to make an accurate prediction at this stage and I would be very surprised if BDO offer up any kind of timescale. We've all seen how long it's taking the likes of Lendy, MT, FS etc to achieve repayments for their overdue loans (we're still waiting for many) and these platforms are fully authorised and operational so why would it be any different for Collateral? I am sure if you asked Lendy for an indication of when they think they'll have all of their overdue loans wrapped up you wouldn't get much of an answer either. Lendy are very much skewed towards property (do they do anything else?) and Mt's non property stuff generally behaves itself...then also its the development stuff that seems to be the biggest problem at Lendy....I know Collateral have some...but personally..I had a couple of property loans and the rest bling....I can't imagine that stuff is going to be quite as difficult to refinance..or maybe I'm wrong. I would add that Monetus I don't expect you to come on here all the time and justify whats gong on ...I guess what with the meetings coming up and an expected update from BDO (this week?) its all a bit relevant
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Monetus
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Post by Monetus on Nov 19, 2018 10:41:16 GMT
I think I can speak for everyone when I say that we'd all like to know this. This question was asked in the first meeting and I have no doubt it will be asked again in this next one. However, having seen a line-by-line breakdown of the loan book (covered by NDA) in the first meeting, I think it's absolutely impossible to make an accurate prediction at this stage and I would be very surprised if BDO offer up any kind of timescale. We've all seen how long it's taking the likes of Lendy, MT, FS etc to achieve repayments for their overdue loans (we're still waiting for many) and these platforms are fully authorised and operational so why would it be any different for Collateral? I am sure if you asked Lendy for an indication of when they think they'll have all of their overdue loans wrapped up you wouldn't get much of an answer either. I would add that Monetus I don't expect you to come on here all the time and justify whats gong on ...I guess what with the meetings coming up and an expected update from BDO (this week?) its all a bit relevant Yes - as the administrators proposals are due next week and the Committee meeting is arranged for the 12th December, don't expect any further posts from myself until after both of these events have passed.
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elliotn
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Post by elliotn on Nov 19, 2018 11:57:56 GMT
Thanks tommytaylor Committee members don't have any responsibility to report back to anyone and I'm definitely not any kind of spokesperson for the Committee. I believe some of the other members were previously posters on this forum but were banned for some reason. I'm simply an investor in the same boat as many of you here with a significant amount of my own money on the line who'd like to see as much of it returned as possible. As an investor I completely understand that it's frustrating to not know what's going on so I'm committed to keeping the forum as informed as I possibly can (of course within the boundaries of the NDA that I signed and without saying anything that may be harmful or jeopardise recovery in any way). Well all i can say to that is hats off to you sir. Keep up the good work Indeed, Adam seems to be the only CC member providing any semblance of an update (y) . For the sake of balance - whilst sandwich/travel costs presumably have no import for this Big Hitter (see his extraordinary p2p accounts) - the giving up of his time should also be offset against the hyper privileged position he now enjoys for the recovery of his own asset position vs 1000+ smaller investors (in terms of size likely to be more risky developments under cash back than more conservative, stored bling for the minnows). I'm unconvinced that the X0,000s this committee will cost us offers value for £ when the cynical might consider it a procedural whitewash to approve admin's costs (which will just be approved by the judge should our brave warriors every conjure up the balls to object to them).
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Monetus
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Post by Monetus on Nov 19, 2018 12:34:44 GMT
Well all i can say to that is hats off to you sir. Keep up the good work Indeed, Adam seems to be the only CC member providing any semblance of an update (y) . For the sake of balance - whilst sandwich/travel costs presumably have no import for this Big Hitter (see his extraordinary p2p accounts) - the giving up of his time should also be offset against the hyper privileged position he now enjoys for the recovery of his own asset position vs 1000+ smaller investors (in terms of size likely to be more risky developments under cash back than more conservative, stored bling for the minnows). I'm unconvinced that the X0,000s this committee will cost us offers value for £ when the cynical might consider it a procedural whitewash to approve admin's costs (which will just be approved by the judge should our brave warriors every conjure up the balls to object to them). Yes @elliotn I believe you've made your opinion quite clear regarding the Committee and its functions on several threads now. Appreciate the support
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7d7
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Post by 7d7 on Nov 19, 2018 13:37:22 GMT
To be clear, BDO fees should be restricted to the pot of funds Collateral would have collected as commission for each loan after lenders' capital and interest have been settled.
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blender
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Post by blender on Nov 19, 2018 13:46:26 GMT
To be clear, BDO fees should be restricted to the pot of funds Collateral would have collected as commission for each loan after lenders' capital and interest have been settled. So you would take on the job on that basis, assuming you have the knowledge and qualifications to do it?
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GeorgeT
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Post by GeorgeT on Nov 20, 2018 1:13:07 GMT
With regard to the comment by Monetus that prior to the next creditors committee meeting the committee will be tasked with approving BDO fees to date, I would simply and rhetorically request that Monetus seeks confirmation that we, as the creditors, have not been charged a silly amount of money for the round of sandwiches and fruit that was provided for lunch at the first meeting.
It would not be extraordinary if the lunch for 5 persons had a minor smallprint entry on the accounts for a cost of £1,000 or similar.
I also wish to place on record my concern that the majority of the Collateral property loans involve properties in the northwest and northeast of England and yet we have been informed that an expensive London based property firm are on the payroll for providing property advice in relation to the same. There are of course many property experts in the north of England who charge a fraction of what London based partnerships charge and who it could be argued are better placed to advise and deal.
Regrettably in my opinion there are an association of companies with close connections who feed this sort of work amongst themselves in order to earn very fat fees of £500 per hour plus and clearly in the case of Collateral that is inappropriate giving it is or was a small North West of England based company with predominantly a property portfolio in the north of England.
It troubles me that London fee rate practitioners have got their snouts in the trough. Admittedly this is because the FCA have once again stuffed the man in the street but equally the creditors committee is in place to try and reign in the profligate spending of the London fat cats.
While I am now retired I did spend some years during my career fighting against ridiculous fees being charged or attempted to be charged by very posh officed firms and partners thereof who wore Savile Row suits and drove big Mercedes cars. often times the amount of hours charged and fee rates charged were entirely not commensurate with the work involved and considerably in excess of market averages purely because the work was in the bag and they thought the fee account was a free ride.
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rxdav
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Post by rxdav on Nov 20, 2018 10:09:17 GMT
Silly question time but, is it the case the there will likely be zero interim distributions until BDO have accounted for every single penny and every loan has been converted into cash sitting in the bank account? Put another way, while any borrower still owes principal and/or interest we won’t get a penny even five years later? Because we all know how long successful recoveries can take. I would suggest even more so unsuccessful ones!!
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averageguy
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Post by averageguy on Nov 26, 2018 9:27:14 GMT
Is it today we should have the 6 monthly report from BDO?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 26, 2018 15:37:47 GMT
As a retired software business owner and programmer with 30+ years experience in designing and managing databases I do not understand why a "front end" is needed to manipulate the data. Front ends are only needed for operators and end users and take a huge amount of time/cost to create. As a back end to a web site, the data schema and engine are the only requirements to access and generate lists and reports on the data. Any half-competent database programmer, with the schema, should be able to throw the data into excel very easily. Thus allowing it to be easily queried. After all, Collateral was a tiny company, how complex could their records have been? I'm also struggling with what the hell they're playing at. I'm a database designer and programmer by profession and if they have the back end up and running, any decent DBA with a bit of background in how the business worked should be able work out how the schema hangs together and get useful data out of it. This is a much simpler database than most ERP systems and I frequently have to get to grips with those with little or no documentation so the story we've been given to date doesn't make sense. Indeed if the database was properly written, a lot of the data manipulation done by the missing front end would have been handled by parameterised stored procedures in the back end that they've recovered which would make data extraction even easier. Something doesn't smell right. As someone who spent over 20 years working for the world's largest networking and IT companies as a software engineer and architect, I was also used to schemas of both sql and nosql databases and I completely agree with what DeafEater has said here. I'd be surprised if a single skilled database guy (plus an accountant or similar) couldn't figure out most of it inside a week. The engineer would be about 500 quid a day. Makes me wonder also why such things as what technology the Col system was based on plus how many schemas and other servers were involved can't be released. That would give an idea of how much there is to disassemble and thus how much resource and how long it should take. There's supposed to be some transparency isn't there? Edit: Just to say I also 100% agree with p2psavy. There are any number of ways the data could be viewed. Whether piped into excel tables or viewed using generic sql viewer software or something else. Assuming we're not talking about a massively complex system (think large bank or paytv headend) which we're probably not I'd really be surprised the data is available in some / any format it couldn't be made viewable inside a week.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Nov 26, 2018 16:10:47 GMT
I'm also struggling with what the hell they're playing at. I'm a database designer and programmer by profession and if they have the back end up and running, any decent DBA with a bit of background in how the business worked should be able work out how the schema hangs together and get useful data out of it. This is a much simpler database than most ERP systems and I frequently have to get to grips with those with little or no documentation so the story we've been given to date doesn't make sense. Indeed if the database was properly written, a lot of the data manipulation done by the missing front end would have been handled by parameterised stored procedures in the back end that they've recovered which would make data extraction even easier. Something doesn't smell right. As someone who spent over 20 years working for the world's largest networking and IT companies as a software engineer and architect, I was also used to schemas of both sql and nosql databases and I completely agree with what DeafEater has said here. I'd be surprised if a single skilled database guy (plus an accountant or similar) couldn't figure out most of it inside a week. The engineer would be about 500 quid a day. Makes me wonder also why such things as what technology the Col system was based on plus how many schemas and other servers were involved can't be released. That would give an idea of how much there is to disassemble and thus how much resource and how long it should take. There's supposed to be some transparency isn't there? As a retired IT project manager with over 10 years experience in a blue-chip firm, I can confirm that the guys above have used just about enough technical words to convince me that this plan sounds plausible. They have also ensured that their favourite word - parameterised - is present, which is essential as my client was always impressed by that word when it cropped up in a plan. Providing that I can assure myself that I can memorise at least 50% of this information so that I sound like I know what I am talking about, I am content to adopt standard practice and treble each of their estimates, add a further 2 months of contingency, and spend hours creating a Microsoft Project plan that no-one, including me, will ever look at again once approved. Edit: Sorry to detract from what sound very valid comments, could not resist. The billing sounds right too, I can add that BDO will pay £500 a day and charge £1500 to us
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