star dust
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Post by star dust on Jan 24, 2019 11:00:38 GMT
To the best of my knowledge - yes. The report I received at the last meeting had separate individual tranches and I believe it's BDO's intention to honour this structure if possible following the data recovery process. Awesome - that's v helpful, thanks a lot. I don't envy them (/their lawyers) having to work out how deductions are made for their expenses etc. from all this... that's not going to be an easy process given the different % recoveries for each investor. I don't think it's that unusual a procedure for various business/industry contracts or even where there are different cost centres within a single organisation. I should imagine it would be done at the loan level on a loan by loan basis, and once the process is set up I would expect it to be pretty easy. BDO staff would need to keep timesheets, and so would any sub-contracted companies/personnel if they are dealing with more than one loan (easy enough to write into a contract). All non-loan specific costs - loan book recovery, or CC meetings for example - would be recorded but split across the entire loan book. For loans with tranches I would expect the same proportionate cost deduction from all tranches.
The only concern with this is that it could delay repayments, but there should be ways round that, deducting an overestimate of 'central' costs from all returns and finalising that percentage at the end (whenever that might be) to return any excess for example. I would expect them to have enough experience of these situations to be able to do this.
I also hope the CC have asked the questions and are on top of it.
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jonno
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nil satis nisi optimum
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Post by jonno on Jan 24, 2019 11:19:12 GMT
I'm sure that the ONLY thing that we can be 100% confident of with this horrible mess is that BDO will have robust and comprehensive procedures for the FULL recovery of every single penny of their costs
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chris1200
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Post by chris1200 on Jan 24, 2019 11:22:20 GMT
I don't think it's that unusual a procedure for various business/industry contracts or even where there are different cost centres within a single organisation. I should imagine it would be done at the loan level on a loan by loan basis, and once the process is set up I would expect it to be pretty easy. BDO staff would need to keep timesheets, and so would any sub-contracted companies/personnel if they are dealing with more than one loan (easy enough to write into a contract). All non-loan specific costs - loan book recovery, or CC meetings for example - would be recorded but split across the entire loan book. For loans with tranches I would expect the same proportionate cost deduction from all tranches. The only concern with this is that it could delay repayments, but there should be ways round that, deducting an overestimate of 'central' costs from all returns and finalising that percentage at the end (whenever that might be) to return any excess for example. I would expect them to have enough experience of these situations to be able to do this. I also hope the CC have asked the questions and are on top of it.
No point in getting into a major debate about this at this stage, I guess, but it's less that I think this is especially difficult, and more that there are many options which will favour different investors differently. For instance, you mention 'proportionate cost deductions' - but do you mean as a proportion of recovery or as a proportion of the originally held loan amount? There are arguments for both, I'd say (although maybe there's some case law on this). Then we also have the issue as to whether trust assets are treated differently from money held in the bank account, in this regard. I agree that this process will be/is delaying repayments (and have resisted explaining this several times to those on this forum who have lambasted BDO for not already having paid out funds!), and that an overestimate deduction could work - but they'd have to be very careful with this indeed, and probably need a pretty good idea of roughly what recoveries are going to happen (otherwise such an overestimate might become so large as to make the initial recovery payments pointless). Anyway - we wait to see what their approach is and, indeed, hopefully the CC are engaging with them on this!
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dApps
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Post by dApps on Jan 24, 2019 11:39:39 GMT
I'm sure that the ONLY thing that we can be 100% confident of with this horrible mess is that BDO will have robust and comprehensive procedures for the FULL recovery of every single penny of their costs I sincerely hope they do have one. I wouldn't want a professional company to undertake an activity on my behalf and halfway through then go into receivership because of financial difficulties. Net result: appoint new company and start (pretty much) all over again. (I think there a case for arguing we caught a lucky break when RR were booted out.)
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Jan 24, 2019 11:43:10 GMT
Hmm did RR graduate to the ranks of 'professional companies' while I wasn't looking?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jan 24, 2019 13:44:10 GMT
Hmm did RR graduate to the ranks of 'professional companies' while I wasn't looking? "Professional" in the sense that they were being paid for it... There's a couple of snippets on this definition which may be thought apposite...
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stokeloans
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Post by stokeloans on Jan 24, 2019 15:37:42 GMT
"Good progress is being made on data recovery: "we are now at the stage where a significant majority of investors’ detailed portfolio analysis as extracted from the database reconciles with the information initially provided to us by Refresh Recovery""
So RR did recover the database if BDO are comparing their information to that. Weren't we told otherwise ?
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ozboy
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Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
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Post by ozboy on Jan 24, 2019 15:38:07 GMT
I'm sure that the ONLY thing that we can be 100% confident of with this horrible mess is that BDO will have robust and comprehensive procedures for the FULL recovery of every single penny of their costs I sincerely hope they do have one. I wouldn't want a professional company to undertake an activity on my behalf and halfway through then go into receivership because of financial difficulties. Net result: appoint new company and start (pretty much) all over again. (I think there a case for arguing we caught a lucky break when RR were booted out.) One of my Student Block loans on Assetz went into Receivership. And soon afterwards, the Receivers went into Receivership (?!), you couldn't make it up. Oh, and then there was a fire in said Student Block. P2P Property Loans, dontcha just love 'em!
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Monetus
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Post by Monetus on Jan 24, 2019 15:55:27 GMT
So RR did recover the database if BDO are comparing their information to that. No. They are comparing their findings extracted from the databases to the suggested overall balance for each investor as supplied by RR in spreadsheet form. From the administrators proposals in June 2018: "Mr Craig also provided certain key information in relation to the investors and loan book, in the form of two spreadsheets"
"In respect of the investors, the information that has been retrieved by the Joint Administrators to date (i.e. from Refresh Recovery) contains contact and personal details of the investors, their total exposure to loans on the Companies’ platform, and an analysis of balances held by certain investors on the Companies’ client account (although, as noted above, these balances do not appear to reconcile with the actual balance held on the client account, and the Joint Administrators are investigating the discrepancy)."
"The investor information does not, however, provide sufficient detail to enable the Joint Administrators to prepare an analysis of each investor’s investments into specific loans or tranches of loans. We have been advised by the directors that this information was held on the Companies’ electronic platform."
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11025
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Post by 11025 on Jan 24, 2019 16:23:59 GMT
So RR did recover the database if BDO are comparing their information to that. No. They are comparing their findings extracted from the databases to the suggested overall balance for each investor as supplied by RR in spreadsheet form. From the administrators proposals in June 2018: "Mr Craig also provided certain key information in relation to the investors and loan book, in the form of two spreadsheets"
"In respect of the investors, the information that has been retrieved by the Joint Administrators to date (i.e. from Refresh Recovery) contains contact and personal details of the investors, their total exposure to loans on the Companies’ platform, and an analysis of balances held by certain investors on the Companies’ client account (although, as noted above, these balances do not appear to reconcile with the actual balance held on the client account, and the Joint Administrators are investigating the discrepancy)."
"The investor information does not, however, provide sufficient detail to enable the Joint Administrators to prepare an analysis of each investor’s investments into specific loans or tranches of loans. We have been advised by the directors that this information was held on the Companies’ electronic platform."So as far as you know , although the FCA don't trust RR and there are a lot of unsavoury stories floating round regarding Mr Craig BDO are quite happy to rely on information provided from his spreadsheets ?
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Monetus
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Post by Monetus on Jan 24, 2019 16:34:22 GMT
So as far as you know , although the FCA don't trust RR and there are a lot of unsavoury stories floating round regarding Mr Craig BDO are quite happy to rely on information provided from his spreadsheets ? Whether they trust or rely on the provided information is irrelevant - i t's the only potential data point that they have to reconcile against currently.
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11025
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Post by 11025 on Jan 24, 2019 16:36:49 GMT
So as far as you know , although the FCA don't trust RR and there are a lot of unsavoury stories floating round regarding Mr Craig BDO are quite happy to rely on information provided from his spreadsheets ? Whether they trust or rely on the provided information is irrelevant - i t's the only potential data point that they have to reconcile against currently. Fair comment , I am shocked that we are so far down the line now and that is as good as it gets !
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Post by charliebrown on Jan 24, 2019 18:04:41 GMT
"Good progress is being made on data recovery: "we are now at the stage where a significant majority of investors’ detailed portfolio analysis as extracted from the database reconciles with the information initially provided to us by Refresh Recovery"" So RR did recover the database if BDO are comparing their information to that. Weren't we told otherwise ? I have been an IT professional for well over 25 years. I can promise you that in my experience, unless the data is encrypted or corrupted, reconstructing the database and extracting meaningful data such as individual’s transaction history is really not that difficult. It certainly shouldn’t take the best part of a full year and it certainly shouldn’t cost the ridiculous fees BDO are charging. It’s really quite pathetic that we are this far down the track and they’re still talking about their amazing efforts to recover the data. A decent DBA and Data Architect would be able to reverse engineer a database, that I suspect is comparatively small and simple, in just a few weeks.
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stokeloans
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Post by stokeloans on Jan 24, 2019 19:47:01 GMT
"Good progress is being made on data recovery: "we are now at the stage where a significant majority of investors’ detailed portfolio analysis as extracted from the database reconciles with the information initially provided to us by Refresh Recovery"" So RR did recover the database if BDO are comparing their information to that. Weren't we told otherwise ? I have been an IT professional for well over 25 years. I can promise you that in my experience, unless the data is encrypted or corrupted, reconstructing the database and extracting meaningful data such as individual’s transaction history is really not that difficult. It certainly shouldn’t take the best part of a full year and it certainly shouldn’t cost the ridiculous fees BDO are charging. It’s really quite pathetic that we are this far down the track and they’re still talking about their amazing efforts to recover the data. A decent DBA and Data Architect would be able to reverse engineer a database, that I suspect is comparatively small and simple, in just a few weeks. I think what you're trying to say is BDO are extracting the urine ? Can't disagree with you
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Kyrios
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Post by Kyrios on Jan 25, 2019 10:16:03 GMT
"Good progress is being made on data recovery: "we are now at the stage where a significant majority of investors’ detailed portfolio analysis as extracted from the database reconciles with the information initially provided to us by Refresh Recovery"" So RR did recover the database if BDO are comparing their information to that. Weren't we told otherwise ? I have been an IT professional for well over 25 years. I can promise you that in my experience, unless the data is encrypted or corrupted, reconstructing the database and extracting meaningful data such as individual’s transaction history is really not that difficult. It certainly shouldn’t take the best part of a full year and it certainly shouldn’t cost the ridiculous fees BDO are charging. It’s really quite pathetic that we are this far down the track and they’re still talking about their amazing efforts to recover the data. A decent DBA and Data Architect would be able to reverse engineer a database, that I suspect is comparatively small and simple, in just a few weeks. Yes but what can you expect when you give that kind of job to people who have no IT background ?
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