ozboy
Member of DD Central
Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
Posts: 3,156
Likes: 4,830
|
Post by ozboy on Jan 6, 2019 20:41:08 GMT
It will happen anyway, in due course. There'll be increasing general resistance to continue paying the huge medical bills for those who refuse to be reasonably responsible for their own health. There's no cause to argue on here about the rights or wrongs, it's an inevitability IMHO. I've just thought of a hypothetical situation which I'm sure must have occurred already:- Two patients are critically ill and need an urgent transplant/whatever, both are the same situation with everything except one is a gross fatso and/or heavy smoker and one is an acceptable weight and/or has never smoked. Both will die unless they get their procedure pretty damn quick but unfortunately the life saving operation "opportunity" only comes up sporadically because the appropriate organs/whatever are only available sporadically. Smoking and/or fatso gets the op, because, ethically, the quacks decide the fatso and/or smoker has a vastly higher risk of dying sooner if they don't go first. Meanwhile, you've been responsible, watched your weight all your life, never smoked, and look on, and you get second place because you're healthier. Which of course hugely increases the high chances you'll be dead before the next op "opportunity" comes along. I'm also reminded of George Best being given his liver transplant when it was strongly rumoured at the time, and I hasten it was a rumour, that one or more others arguably more "deserving" and/or ahead in the queue, were relegated. We have interesting times ahead in many areas but I wonder how long Political Correctness/ethics/call it what you will can last in the medical arena when cold, hard £££££££s are gradually more & more involved? Post reasoned thinking please chaps & chapesses, no need to lose one's rag about this!
|
|
|
Post by Ace on Jan 6, 2019 20:54:23 GMT
Sorry ozboy, no time for reasoned thinking here. I'm way too busy trying to get the hang of this smoking and over eating malarkey in a concerted effort to attain some of that extra fornication that you promised earlier 😄
|
|
dApps
Posts: 91
Likes: 80
|
Post by dApps on Jan 6, 2019 21:25:43 GMT
<snip> I've just thought of a hypothetical situation which I'm sure must have occurred already:- Two patients are critically ill and need an urgent transplant/whatever, both are the same situation with everything except one is a gross fatso and/or heavy smoker and one is an acceptable weight and/or has never smoked. Both will die unless they get their procedure pretty damn quick but unfortunately the life saving operation "opportunity" only comes up sporadically because the appropriate organs/whatever are only available sporadically. Smoking and/or fatso gets the op, because, ethically, the quacks decide the fatso and/or smoker has a vastly higher risk of dying sooner if they don't go first. Meanwhile, you've been responsible, watched your weight all your life, never smoked, and look on, and you get second place because you're healthier. Which of course hugely increases the high chances you'll be dead before the next op "opportunity" comes along. <snip> Post reasoned thinking please chaps & chapesses, no need to lose one's rag about this! Healthier individual gets the op because: a) the op is more likely to be a success, boosting Surgeon and Dept stats b) post op recovery is likely to be quicker, reducing costs Ego and Economics: poor ol' Ethics never stood a chance. (Edit: Not that I necessarily think operating on 'fatso' was the ethically correct choice.)
|
|
scc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 214
Likes: 163
|
Post by scc on Jan 6, 2019 21:32:21 GMT
Obesity is a complex mix of factors - and looking for a silver bullet is probably doomed to failure. The off-quoted calories in = calories out is a very simplistic way of looking at.
Some people (probably those that would have likely survived famines historically) are genetically disposed to get fat. Some people do better on certain diets that others. Other have poor advice. Others find it impossible to follow good advice - probably because they have become addicted to certain foods or inadequate nutrients gives them cravings for particular foods (and the food industrial complex custom design foods to make us want to eat them). Others are limited by finances and opportunity (I once lived in an area where you could get a hot fried chicken meal for £2 but a single apple would cost a quid).
The human body and gut flora does some extremely weird stuff eg a pregnant woman's gut will expand to absorb more food, a faecal transplant from a fat person to a thin one can make them become fat. It even turns out that your gut flora can rebel if you make dietary changes too quickly (if you're attempting Veganuary and struggling that might be why).
Personally, I've never had any problems with obesity (I have 20+ year old clothes which still fit) or worried about it but I'm sympathetic to those that do.
|
|
ozboy
Member of DD Central
Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
Posts: 3,156
Likes: 4,830
|
Post by ozboy on Jan 6, 2019 21:37:26 GMT
<snip> I've just thought of a hypothetical situation which I'm sure must have occurred already:- Two patients are critically ill and need an urgent transplant/whatever, both are the same situation with everything except one is a gross fatso and/or heavy smoker and one is an acceptable weight and/or has never smoked. Both will die unless they get their procedure pretty damn quick but unfortunately the life saving operation "opportunity" only comes up sporadically because the appropriate organs/whatever are only available sporadically. Smoking and/or fatso gets the op, because, ethically, the quacks decide the fatso and/or smoker has a vastly higher risk of dying sooner if they don't go first. Meanwhile, you've been responsible, watched your weight all your life, never smoked, and look on, and you get second place because you're healthier. Which of course hugely increases the high chances you'll be dead before the next op "opportunity" comes along. <snip> Post reasoned thinking please chaps & chapesses, no need to lose one's rag about this! Healthier individual gets the op because: a) the op is more likely to be a success, boosting Surgeon and Dept stats b) post op recovery is likely to be quicker, reducing costs Ego and Economics: poor ol' Ethics never stood a chance. (Edit: Not that I necessarily think operating on 'fatso' was the ethically correct choice.) As long as we can possibly agree on "Fatso" and not some PC rubbish like "Stout". Or worse, the women I meet from dating sites who insist before meeting that "I'm curvy". Curvy? No, you're FAT love. EDIT / PS: Yep dApps, your version makes more sense, if that's what happens. I just wonder how much of the truth we're ever actually told anyway? And that's another whole Topic/Thread!
|
|
macq
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,924
Likes: 1,191
|
Post by macq on Jan 6, 2019 22:42:08 GMT
Healthier individual gets the op because: a) the op is more likely to be a success, boosting Surgeon and Dept stats b) post op recovery is likely to be quicker, reducing costs Ego and Economics: poor ol' Ethics never stood a chance. (Edit: Not that I necessarily think operating on 'fatso' was the ethically correct choice.) As long as we can possibly agree on "Fatso" and not some PC rubbish like "Stout". Or worse, the women I meet from dating sites who insist before meeting that "I'm curvy". Curvy? No, you're FAT love. EDIT / PS: Yep dApps , your version makes more sense, if that's what happens. I just wonder how much of the truth we're ever actually told anyway? And that's another whole Topic/Thread! but how many women on the dating sites did you tell you had a six pack when you really meant a case of beer?
|
|
Godanubis
Member of DD Central
Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
Posts: 2,011
Likes: 1,013
|
Post by Godanubis on Jan 6, 2019 23:08:33 GMT
Healthier individual gets the op because: a) the op is more likely to be a success, boosting Surgeon and Dept stats b) post op recovery is likely to be quicker, reducing costs Ego and Economics: poor ol' Ethics never stood a chance. (Edit: Not that I necessarily think operating on 'fatso' was the ethically correct choice.) As long as we can possibly agree on "Fatso" and not some PC rubbish like "Stout". Or worse, the women I meet from dating sites who insist before meeting that "I'm curvy". Curvy? No, you're FAT love. EDIT / PS: Yep dApps , your version makes more sense, if that's what happens. I just wonder how much of the truth we're ever actually told anyway? And that's another whole Topic/Thread! Having met over 300 women in my wilder captured lost youth midlife crisis days. I think I am qualified as to what women put on profiles. There are plenty of plus size women who easily put their skinnier fellows to shame. Marilyn Monroe was size 18. Curvey,voluptuous,chunky are less emotive terms that give you an indication of their physique. Ask anyone on steroids if gaining weight is a lifestyle choice. It is not. As a cuddly individual I can assure you it’s easier to put weight on than take it off. With regards to NHS I chose not contribute personally to the demise of the planet by not having one of the highest contributors to global warming “children “ their carbon footprint in lifetime of buying goods etc is enormous. I also contributed massively to others children’s education and that amount far outweighs anything I take from NHS. I do have genetic children without any effort on my behalf. I had no choice in that.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 8:36:57 GMT
M Monroe was not a size 18, the US sizes changed after she died.
Her measurements were 5 ft. 5.5 inches tall; 35 inch bust; 22 inch waist (approximately 2-3 inches less than the average American woman in the 1950s and 12 inches less than average today); and 35 inch hips, with a bra size of 36D. Her weight fluctuated a bit through her career, usually rising in times of depression and falling back to her normal thereafter, but her dressmaker listed her as 118 pounds and the Hollywood studios tended to list her between 115-120 lbs.
|
|
Mike
Member of DD Central
Posts: 647
Likes: 443
|
Post by Mike on Jan 7, 2019 9:32:53 GMT
If Prof Andy Goddard is arguing that stupid fat people shouldn't be allowed to have children surely these days that constitutes some sort of racist, misogynistic, or other phobic hate crime? If he'd said anything along those lines it might well be a crime, but AFAIA he didn't so there's no problem. AFAIK forced sterilisation is allowed in extreme circumstances; see www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/mother-of-six-who-has-learning-difficulties-can-be-put-through-forced-sterilisation-rules-judge-10023496.htmlOne could argue that is on the same slope to sterilising other people who are simply too stupid to look after themselves sufficiently sensibly?! Who knows how fat you need to get and how many sprogs you need to have before that is considered by a court! Humour aside, obesity is clearly not a disease, in so much as acquiring alcoholism is not in itself a disease. People are likely predisposed to various extents to both, but you can't always force horses to drink (or alcoholic horses to stop drinking). Those horses don't have an obesity disease, they often appear to me to have an inability to listen & learn & discipline themselves despite knowing they should. I feel it's better seen as addiction and should be dealt with accordingly (whatever way that is...).
|
|
james100
Member of DD Central
Posts: 983
Likes: 1,191
|
Post by james100 on Jan 7, 2019 10:16:35 GMT
M Monroe was not a size 18, the US sizes changed after she died.
Her measurements were 5 ft. 5.5 inches tall; 35 inch bust; 22 inch waist (approximately 2-3 inches less than the average American woman in the 1950s and 12 inches less than average today); and 35 inch hips, with a bra size of 36D. Her weight fluctuated a bit through her career, usually rising in times of depression and falling back to her normal thereafter, but her dressmaker listed her as 118 pounds and the Hollywood studios tended to list her between 115-120 lbs. Yes. Based on the coroner report she had a BMI on 19.4 at the time of her death. That's lower end of healthy weight according to NHS and in real money, based on her height, is about a UK 10 dress size.
|
|
jonno
Member of DD Central
nil satis nisi optimum
Posts: 2,742
Likes: 3,137
|
Post by jonno on Jan 7, 2019 10:57:56 GMT
M Monroe was not a size 18, the US sizes changed after she died.
Her measurements were 5 ft. 5.5 inches tall; 35 inch bust; 22 inch waist (approximately 2-3 inches less than the average American woman in the 1950s and 12 inches less than average today); and 35 inch hips, with a bra size of 36D. Her weight fluctuated a bit through her career, usually rising in times of depression and falling back to her normal thereafter, but her dressmaker listed her as 118 pounds and the Hollywood studios tended to list her between 115-120 lbs. Not that you've studied her in any great detail
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Jan 7, 2019 11:45:03 GMT
M Monroe was not a size 18, the US sizes changed after she died.
Her measurements were 5 ft. 5.5 inches tall; 35 inch bust; 22 inch waist (approximately 2-3 inches less than the average American woman in the 1950s and 12 inches less than average today); and 35 inch hips, with a bra size of 36D. Her weight fluctuated a bit through her career, usually rising in times of depression and falling back to her normal thereafter, but her dressmaker listed her as 118 pounds and the Hollywood studios tended to list her between 115-120 lbs. well on that basis, I've no idea what people saw in her; what was all the fuss about ?
(and I do hope you had to google those numbers, and not just reel them off from memory)
|
|
ozboy
Member of DD Central
Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
Posts: 3,156
Likes: 4,830
|
Post by ozboy on Jan 7, 2019 13:44:01 GMT
M Monroe was not a size 18, the US sizes changed after she died.
Her measurements were 5 ft. 5.5 inches tall; 35 inch bust; 22 inch waist (approximately 2-3 inches less than the average American woman in the 1950s and 12 inches less than average today); and 35 inch hips, with a bra size of 36D. Her weight fluctuated a bit through her career, usually rising in times of depression and falling back to her normal thereafter, but her dressmaker listed her as 118 pounds and the Hollywood studios tended to list her between 115-120 lbs. One hellava woman then!
|
|
copacetic
Member of DD Central
Posts: 305
Likes: 666
|
Post by copacetic on Jan 7, 2019 18:35:54 GMT
One solution to obesity for all us keyboard warriors on here is:
More seriously though, the NHS is paid for out of everyone's taxes. I don't see any problem with a tax on unhealthy foods such as sugary drinks or high calorie fast foods which provides a financial disincentive to consume with extra funding which could theoretically be ringfenced for healthcare for those that do consume them and are more likely to develop health problems in later life as a result. Currently our taxes on smoking and alchohol do just that.
|
|
Greenwood2
Member of DD Central
Posts: 4,241
Likes: 2,686
|
Post by Greenwood2 on Jan 7, 2019 21:15:37 GMT
If he'd said anything along those lines it might well be a crime, but AFAIA he didn't so there's no problem. AFAIK forced sterilisation is allowed in extreme circumstances; see www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/mother-of-six-who-has-learning-difficulties-can-be-put-through-forced-sterilisation-rules-judge-10023496.htmlOne could argue that is on the same slope to sterilising other people who are simply too stupid to look after themselves sufficiently sensibly?! Who knows how fat you need to get and how many sprogs you need to have before that is considered by a court! Humour aside, obesity is clearly not a disease, in so much as acquiring alcoholism is not in itself a disease. People are likely predisposed to various extents to both, but you can't always force horses to drink (or alcoholic horses to stop drinking). Those horses don't have an obesity disease, they often appear to me to have an inability to listen & learn & discipline themselves despite knowing they should. I feel it's better seen as addiction and should be dealt with accordingly (whatever way that is...). A very slippery slope, we tend to perceive a fat person as fatter than we are and an alcoholic as someone who drinks more than we do, etc. Hope the judge is worse in whatever respect we are being judged on than we are.
|
|