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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 9:06:33 GMT
Socially and morally this investment is worth nothing, it merely burns electricity to make something of no inherent value, I will not be lending.
No, I'm not looking for an argument. Just my views.
As always, good luck to those who invest.
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Post by Proptechfish on Mar 7, 2019 9:22:17 GMT
Socially and morally this investment is worth nothing, it merely burns electricity to make something of no inherent value, I will not be lending.
No, I'm not looking for an argument. Just my views.
As always, good luck to those who invest.
You could say exactly the same about P2P in general Sorry I couldn't resist, I'm just in one them moods. Your views are your views.
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KoR_Wraith
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Post by KoR_Wraith on Mar 7, 2019 9:30:56 GMT
General purpose hardware was used in the early days of cryptomining, however, this has been surpassed by ASICs - very specialised units which lack purpose beyond cryptomining. Naturally this technology depreciates over time and it's week to week value is tied to the whims of cryptocurrency pricing. Should the bottom fall out of cryptomarkets (again), I wouldn't place too much faith in realising value attached to mining hardware. If mining becomes unprofitable the higher cost operators temporarily shutdown and hope for cryptocurrency price increases or sell up. Big drops in cryptocurrency floods the market with cheap second hand mining hardware. dailyhodl.com/2018/11/28/crypto-mining-is-it-still-worth-the-investment/www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/mining/profitability/www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/mining/hardware/I feel I'm being quite negative given the proposal has yet to be made available so I'll leave it at that and hope there's more to this loan than funding hardware to straddle the thin line between profitability and switching off hardware to save money.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Mar 7, 2019 9:44:28 GMT
Socially and morally this investment is worth nothing, it merely burns electricity to make something of no inherent value, I will not be lending. Couldn't agree more. No idea whether this will prove a successful P2P loan, but I don't intend to find out!
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jonno
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nil satis nisi optimum
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Post by jonno on Mar 7, 2019 10:08:08 GMT
Socially and morally this investment is worth nothing, it merely burns electricity to make something of no inherent value, I will not be lending. Couldn't agree more. No idea whether this will prove a successful P2P loan, but I don't intend to find out! I sincerely hope the working title for this thread shouldn't have been "New York Mining Disaster 1941"
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Mar 7, 2019 10:10:16 GMT
Socially and morally this investment is worth nothing, it merely burns electricity to make something of no inherent value, I will not be lending. Couldn't agree more. No idea whether this will prove a successful P2P loan, but I don't intend to find out! Ditto.
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Post by ladywhitenap on Mar 7, 2019 10:36:48 GMT
The security is a chattels mortgage over the computers/hardware which the proposal state is presumed to end up at zero value after two years, the duration of the loan. So to me, the LTV may well start at 70% but surely rises to infinite towards the end of the loan.
Should this type of devaluing asset is more suited to an amortizing loan/payback model?
Or have I misunderstood?
LW
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p2pmark
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Post by p2pmark on Mar 7, 2019 10:44:54 GMT
I’m very sceptical about this one (as, admittedly, I am about almost anything to do with crypto): - This proposal is extremely dependent on the price of crypto going forward. As such, the statement that the company can “generate secure income exposed to cryptocurrency, but without the associated volatility” is flatly false and should be removed, ablrate . (That they convert currency daily is almost entirely irrelevant: if the price of all crypto halves - as the borrower proposal notes, the prices of different crypto are correlated with one another - then the future stream of income halves.” Incidentally, what price bitcoin is assumed? - Investing in a very risky proposition may be acceptable if there is appropriate upside risk as well as downside risk. Here, the upside risk is limited to 13% p.a. while the downside risk is great. - I’m doubtful the IT equipment would be worth much after such heavy usage and I expect much of its value is related to its customisation - The intrinsic value of crypto is close to zero. I’d expect the price to fall to its true level over time. - As more crypto is “discovered” by industry it will be increasingly harder to mine them (this is a design feature), meaning costs can only rise over time. So I’m out. And, ablrate, could you please remove that statement about the income not being associated with crypto volatility? (Or tell me why I'm wrong.)
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puddleduck
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Post by puddleduck on Mar 7, 2019 10:57:23 GMT
Very surprised to see such a low quality loan offering - it's rather like trying to turn water into wine, but in this case using crypto-cash (which is essentially worthless) as a lure to attract real spendable money.
A crypto-firm needing to borrow real money is ironic.
The hardware will be worthless in 2 years, no value in used IT, let alone as loan security.
I'm stunned Ablrate thought this was viable - I've checked the calendar and its not April 1st for 3 weeks.
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Post by ladywhitenap on Mar 7, 2019 10:57:42 GMT
I’m very sceptical about this one (as, admittedly, I am about almost anything to do with crypto): - This proposal is extremely dependent on the price of crypto going forward. As such, the statement that the company can “generate secure income exposed to cryptocurrency, but without the associated volatility” is flatly false and should be removed, ablrate . (That they convert currency daily is almost entirely irrelevant: if the price of all crypto halves - as the borrower proposal notes, the prices of different crypto are correlated with one another - then the future stream of income halves.” Incidentally, what price bitcoin is assumed? - Investing in a very risky proposition may be acceptable if there is appropriate upside risk as well as downside risk. Here, the upside risk is limited to 13% p.a. while the downside risk is great. - I’m doubtful the IT equipment would be worth much after such heavy usage and I expect much of its value is related to its customisation - What price bitcoin is assumed? - The intrinsic value of crypto is close to zero. I’d expect the price to fall to its true level over time. - As more crypto is “discovered” by industry it will be increasingly harder to mine them (this is a design feature), meaning costs can only rise over time. So I’m out. And, ablrate, could you please remove that statement about the income not being associated with crypto volatility? (Or tell me why I'm wrong.) I think they mean that the conversion of their earnings into sterling daily gives a reduced exposure to crypto currency volatility. A bit like spending your wages on tangible assets as soon as you get it rather than putting in the bank at 0.1% interest and it devaluing due to inflation? LW
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Mar 7, 2019 11:01:45 GMT
Worth noting that the containers the equipment is housed in, that is shipped from China would have a certain value.
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Post by Proptechfish on Mar 7, 2019 11:05:08 GMT
I’m very sceptical about this one (as, admittedly, I am about almost anything to do with crypto): - This proposal is extremely dependent on the price of crypto going forward. As such, the statement that the company can “generate secure income exposed to cryptocurrency, but without the associated volatility” is flatly false and should be removed, ablrate . (That they convert currency daily is almost entirely irrelevant: if the price of all crypto halves - as the borrower proposal notes, the prices of different crypto are correlated with one another - then the future stream of income halves.” Incidentally, what price bitcoin is assumed? - Investing in a very risky proposition may be acceptable if there is appropriate upside risk as well as downside risk. Here, the upside risk is limited to 13% p.a. while the downside risk is great. - I’m doubtful the IT equipment would be worth much after such heavy usage and I expect much of its value is related to its customisation - What price bitcoin is assumed? - The intrinsic value of crypto is close to zero. I’d expect the price to fall to its true level over time. - As more crypto is “discovered” by industry it will be increasingly harder to mine them (this is a design feature), meaning costs can only rise over time. So I’m out. And, ablrate, could you please remove that statement about the income not being associated with crypto volatility? (Or tell me why I'm wrong.) I know I'm torturing myself getting in to this. I'm afraid you have totally misunderstood the cost of crypto mining. You don't mine crypto by buying it. It's an algorithmic process that works though data sets until it finds a workable blockchain in can turn into a crypto coin. This process takes a lot of processing power. So the cost of mining is basically the cost to run the processor (electric) plus a few other overheads, staff, cost of rent and what not. The day to day value of the crypto market is fairly irrelevant. The market value of all crypto would have to fall below the fixed overheads of the mining operation. What it means by 'Crypto is corrollated' is if Bitcoin bottoms out (market value drops below fixed overheads) they can just easily convert to sell in say Ripple instead which might be at profitable levels. Crypto coins tend to work in mirrors, so when ones having bad day others are having a good day. I wasn't going to invest in this purely because haven't really got available funds on the platform and I didn't plan to deposit this month but I'm now seriously looking at it.
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KoR_Wraith
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Post by KoR_Wraith on Mar 7, 2019 11:05:47 GMT
As suspected, not for me.
As an aside, am I the only one who thinks the illustrative forecast looks odd? - Receipt of loan funds has been counted as profit - Year 1 and Year 3 Full Power Cost profits do not subtract the Full Power Cost entries
We're told: "The miners are being bought at a significant discount to market value as the Company has negotiated a heavy discount for bulk purchase. In the event of recovery of the assets, the open market value may be as high as twice the purchase price. "
In that case I suggest they scrap the cryptomining idea and become a cryptomining hardware re-seller.
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blender
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Post by blender on Mar 7, 2019 11:08:10 GMT
I’m very sceptical about this one (as, admittedly, I am about almost anything to do with crypto): - This proposal is extremely dependent on the price of crypto going forward. As such, the statement that the company can “generate secure income exposed to cryptocurrency, but without the associated volatility” is flatly false and should be removed, ablrate . (That they convert currency daily is almost entirely irrelevant: if the price of all crypto halves - as the borrower proposal notes, the prices of different crypto are correlated with one another - then the future stream of income halves.” Incidentally, what price bitcoin is assumed? - Investing in a very risky proposition may be acceptable if there is appropriate upside risk as well as downside risk. Here, the upside risk is limited to 13% p.a. while the downside risk is great. - I’m doubtful the IT equipment would be worth much after such heavy usage and I expect much of its value is related to its customisation - What price bitcoin is assumed? - The intrinsic value of crypto is close to zero. I’d expect the price to fall to its true level over time. - As more crypto is “discovered” by industry it will be increasingly harder to mine them (this is a design feature), meaning costs can only rise over time. So I’m out. And, ablrate, could you please remove that statement about the income not being associated with crypto volatility? (Or tell me why I'm wrong.) I think they mean that the conversion of their earnings into sterling daily gives a reduced exposure to crypto currency volatility. A bit like spending your wages on tangible assets as soon as you get it rather than putting in the bank at 0.1% interest and it devaluing due to inflation? LW Yes, I think that is right. My problem is that none of the takings is applied to the monthly repayment of any principal. We have yet to see the proposal, but this looks like an equity opportunity to me, not a secured interest-only loan.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Mar 7, 2019 11:08:31 GMT
Likely to be the first ABL loan that I completely blackball .. for all the reasons already given. The hardware will definitely be wortgless in months or years (anyone wanna buy an Ibm 370? DAT player? WII?), and the income stream looks even more speculative than normal mines, and the end product of this one is almost as fictional as SETI-at-home, and just as globally warming. Must do better.
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