macq
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,924
Likes: 1,192
|
Post by macq on Mar 7, 2019 15:36:56 GMT
but surely to be used in a mass market sense all coins would have to have the same value which then makes it the some as old money but digital.But once its at a flat rate does the profit not go for the people trading/ramping/mining & promoting on Facebook at the moment? I don't want to get into the future too much! It is, however, and area I am very interested in and have been learning about for a few years. The coins have to be stable, that is for sure... and yes it the same as old money in reality, but no one organisation controls it (that is why those coins that are 'owned' probably won't go anywhere). When something is decentralised it can't be printed out of existence (zim dollar) etc.. thanks for the replies as it was a genuine interest on my part and i realise this thread was about the loan and not what the future will bring and my views are probably coloured by what i have read over the last couple of years.I still can't get past the point that most if not all crypto is created so in a sense you are selling a product/commodity which depends on how others value it (a bit like the so called "commemorative" coins marketed in weekend papers where there is no market except the people who sell them) - But good luck with the loan
|
|
KoR_Wraith
Member of DD Central
Posts: 293
Likes: 297
|
Post by KoR_Wraith on Mar 7, 2019 15:43:15 GMT
I'm no expert on the crypto side of things, but would be willing to accept Ablrate's analysis that the business is viable. What's stopping me investing is the lack of solid security. A bunch of computers depreciates quickly, down to zero well before the end of the loan. PGs are worth only what's left after the guarantor pays off other loans he's also guaranteed, shifts assets out of arm's reach and/or declares himself bankrupt. Two things might entice me back in: a solid security, eg first charge over the borrower's house; plus making the loan amortising. Otherwise it's bargepole terrain for me. Fundamentally, I make most of my P2P lending decisions on the assumption that the borrower will default. I've been stung by PGs in the past and would likewise need firmer security before investing in this offering.
|
|
hazellend
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,361
Likes: 2,179
|
Post by hazellend on Mar 7, 2019 15:46:21 GMT
Surely with such a high net worth the borrower has some sighting more tangible assets for security
|
|
blender
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,719
Likes: 4,272
|
Post by blender on Mar 7, 2019 15:53:51 GMT
I think the nature of the business proposition is a distraction here. Potential lenders would do better to just look at the lending proposition. A company with no filed accounts, with share capital of £1 and run by a sole director who has lent it £600k. Wants £400k for no part of the company (at this stage). No valuation of the physical security. No first charge on property. No amortisation. (Makes an excuse and leaves).
|
|
r00lish67
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,691
Likes: 4,048
|
Post by r00lish67 on Mar 7, 2019 15:57:36 GMT
Putting to one side the environmental/moral good concerns for the moment (although I share those too, and am in my mid-30's if that somehow helps). What our primary security seems to boil down to is a kick-ass computer to mine various forms of crypto. My understanding is that this is an arms race of sorts, with increasingly powerful equipment required to 'win' coins. The first computers used to mine crypto would now be laughably uneconomical, earning pence whilst costing a fortune. The risk, nay practical certainty, then is that our security will follow suit and become obsolete and apparently within just 2 years. This is indeed stated as risk 1 on p16 of the proposal. The stated mitigant is "The Company expects to make a significant portion of its cashflow and profit early on in the investment period so the longevity of its competitiveness is less important" i.e. we're going to make a quick buck before the hardware becomes useless for its stated purpose. So my two thoughts about that are: 1) As a debt investor, I'm not really concerned so much with plan A. We know it'll be all well and good if plan A succeeds, but what happens if they don't make the cashflow they expect in the first 2 years, for whatever reason? Are we not left with a bunch of tin and wires to sell for a couple of grand to some techno-geeks? i.e. sweet F.A return for us? 2) If they're going to have to make their cash right up-front whilst the value of our security is falling at a rate of knots then I'm with LadyW, surely this needs to be an amortising loan. Not only that, I'd expect there to be some quarterly covenants around revenue during that period, especially as their revenue can only be expected to decrease from day 1. If they can't hit their target by month 3, wouldn't it be better to call it quits immediately and sell the kit? As it stands, it's certainly not one for me. edit: x-d with blender - what he said!
|
|
|
Post by GSV3MIaC on Mar 7, 2019 16:01:32 GMT
ablrate “The really great thing is that we do all this with really low emissions - in fact hardly any." Ermm, excepting all the CO2 inevitably produced when the resulting “feedstock fuels” are burned, presumably!! Unless they’ve also perfected carbon-capture too? fair point Steve.. ..the production of the fuel is low impact... and it would be burned regardless or there would be no point in having a plant that produced it. I am no expert, but my reading (of a University of Queensland paper) says that emissions are less from tyre oil as fuel then oil from fossil sources.... but now we are getting into a whole new thing that I do not pretend to understand!
If they can produce low cost energy, I'd suggest selling it to the grid might be a more sensible option than turning it straight into blockchains of arguable or imaginary worth .. perhaps if they heat an old folks home in the process of mining, they could garner praise on several fronts?
|
|
macq
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,924
Likes: 1,192
|
Post by macq on Mar 7, 2019 16:06:25 GMT
fair point Steve.. ..the production of the fuel is low impact... and it would be burned regardless or there would be no point in having a plant that produced it. I am no expert, but my reading (of a University of Queensland paper) says that emissions are less from tyre oil as fuel then oil from fossil sources.... but now we are getting into a whole new thing that I do not pretend to understand!
If they can produce low cost energy, I'd suggest selling it to the grid might be a more sensible option than turning it straight into blockchains of arguable or imaginary worth .. perhaps if they heat an old folks home in the process of mining, they could garner praise on several fronts?
the words hopefully fast & big bucks spring to mind as an answer
|
|
IFISAcava
Member of DD Central
Posts: 3,664
Likes: 2,988
|
Post by IFISAcava on Mar 7, 2019 16:22:04 GMT
It looks like everyone is staying away - the slowest ABL loan uptake I've ever seen (Just 5% gone after 2.5 h). Can't see how this will get through without amendments.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 16:36:22 GMT
Hmmm... has somebody invented a way to invest in cryptocurrency with all of the risk and none of the potential upside?
|
|
eeyore
Member of DD Central
Posts: 744
Likes: 734
|
Post by eeyore on Mar 7, 2019 16:36:38 GMT
I think the nature of the business proposition is a distraction here. Potential lenders would do better to just look at the lending proposition. A company with no filed accounts, with share capital of £1 and run by a sole director who has lent it £600k. ........
Remind me - what's happened to 1000093 Generators in the past few months following the demise of a key director? Is there insurance in place on this loan to cover the loss of a key individual?
|
|
ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 10,843
Likes: 11,069
|
Post by ilmoro on Mar 7, 2019 17:17:05 GMT
Surely with such a high net worth the borrower has some sighting more tangible assets for security Well he's got the energy company & the holding company with its Fintech poetfolio. Why no security from the parent co, not even a CG?
|
|
invester
P2P Blogger
Posts: 612
Likes: 618
|
Post by invester on Mar 7, 2019 18:30:18 GMT
Ablrate didn't have the best of luck with the other loan involving containers, perhaps a bad omen.
There appears to be scant details on what the security actually is, or whether it could be sold in a orderly fashion should things go wrong.
The loan would need to be amortising and at a much higher rate for me to be interested.
I know that they have wanted to crank up their lending volumes, but there needs to be more quality.
|
|
|
Post by df on Mar 7, 2019 19:31:03 GMT
It looks like everyone is staying away - the slowest ABL loan uptake I've ever seen (Just 5% gone after 2.5 h). Can't see how this will get through without amendments. I've put a little amount in. Would contribute more if it was amortising. It won't be easy to fill this loan, the required amount is too large for an unusual loan like this.
|
|
|
Post by fatbritabroad on Mar 7, 2019 19:46:33 GMT
Well from my pov I have as much knowledge about this as any of the other proposals so will continue my 'buy a bit of everything tactic'. Saying that I'll be interested on the secondary market for this loan if it gets that far!
|
|
|
Post by Duane Dibley on Mar 7, 2019 20:24:44 GMT
The fact that the energy is generated from the removal of tyres from the ecosystem (a big issue: ecogreenequipment.com/how-do-old-discarded-tires-affect-the-environment/) is a big plus It burns electricity generated from getting rid of tyres, "The interesting part is that all of our energy is created from waste. Our main product comes from used tyres! We use a pretty nifty process called pyrolysis to break down waste into an oil. We then use a clever mix of technologies to refine this oil into fuel feedstocks. Our fuel is then used in a mixture of generators or turbines to create electricity... The really great thing is that we do all this with really low emissions - in fact hardly any." And if that's all that the proposal was then it would be reminiscent of Abundance or Triodos and I'd be piling in. But 'mining' for bitcoins? Really? So all together now, The King is in the altogether, but all together, the altogether, he's altogether as naked as the day that he was born!
|
|