travolta
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Post by travolta on Apr 21, 2022 21:04:32 GMT
With the best will in the Western World it will all come to naught because The Other Bit won't come through with the goods.
We are but a blip in the process of 'Earth' and in our hubris we imagine that this blip signifies.
In another 50 years the arms will drop off the windmills and solar panels rot away. The New Green will be Blue.
Any thoughts about moving , Mogish?
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mogish
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Post by mogish on Apr 22, 2022 7:06:29 GMT
I was thinking Mars once king Elon gets his act together .
Where would you suggest?
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mogish
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Post by mogish on Apr 22, 2022 7:12:29 GMT
With the best will in the Western World it will all come to naught because The Other Bit won't come through with the goods. We are but a blip in the process of 'Earth' and in our hubris we imagine that this blip signifies. In another 50 years the arms will drop off the windmills and solar panels rot away. The New Green will be Blue. Any thoughts about moving , Mogish? I think you may be correct. Not much commitment from larger countries from Cop recently. Money will decide regardless of the wants of the people or needs for the planet. We are but mere locusts. Portugal seems easier to access , cheap property and glorious sun with no damn ferry required to get to Europe!. Wanna buy a house...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2022 8:43:06 GMT
Really sorry must be thick.
The question?
Is it why here not there?
Is it why anywhere?
why here not there? will be a financial question and a planning issue, planning controls have all kinds of un-intended consequences and will probably ensure we fail to hit our 2030 carbon targets, I'd vote for any party that wanted to accelerate planning processes when carbon reduction was a core factor
why anywhere? My view, why not everywhere? My house has it, my next door neighbours have and my family has it and yet other people in my town don't have it, why? I guess the financial question and a genuine belief that a "government" angel will protect them when all else fails. When will people realise that the government is "us" and we are pretty stupid and slow acting. Why we expect our government to be anything else is beyond me.
My post was nothing to do with not in my backyard. I fully agree we need to adopt alternative energy solutions. However parties and councils push through planning applications because their manifestos or corporate spiel support these. My situation is that the project to install a 50mw site next to my house is purely a commercial decision by the farmer in partnership with an energy company, absolutely nothing to do with saving the planet or having an interest in creating clean energy or any concerns about local residents. The 9 wind turbines in an around the area seem a far better solution, if home owners and their neighbours plan on living in the same home long term then great, I hope your investment offers a good Roi. Unfortunately voting for any party who focus solely on carbon reduction tend to not live in the real world, like proposals to charge employees 400 quid a year to park at work with absolutely no thought about how public transport would work to reach industrial estates etc as an alternative to using the car. Politicians seem to just focus on charging people rather than come up with an acceptable sensible solution that provides carbon reduction and real life cost savings. I am a bit confused though, we have managed to modify the cost of solar energy to the point where it is financially less than say a fossil fueled power station. This wasn't an easy task and has taken over 20 years of financial incentives to stimulate the technology to make it so (I know because I played a very small part in that work). You accept that non fossil fuel energy is better for the planet than renewable energy. Well you should as the majority of the world's scientists have signed off on this.
Yet you complain when a business man wants to install solar cells in a field which will produce energy for a considerable time, without noise, pollution, dust etc etc.
I really don't understand what the issue is, and I'd like to because these discussions are taking place all over the world at the moment and I'm finding it scary that people seem to push back for no special reason. It is like the adage "I'm not a nimby but... I don't want it there"
I do think there are more significant things to be reviewing, especially given the Russian war situation. Right now we are putting turbines in the sea and laying cables across the sea bed, both or which are open to secret attack, while solar and wind on shore would be less open to secret attack. Listening to Ms Lumley whitter on about her loss of her views annoys me when one day we may have to decide to heat old people's homes or hospitals and that time could be sooner than she thinks.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Apr 22, 2022 9:55:44 GMT
Which I suppose brings me back to the point of incentives to have these on your doorstep.
Interestingly I recently asked why there is no proposal for an offshore wind farm in Cardiff bay and was told that the politician felt it would damage the views and tourism in Cardiff, and that this outweighed the benefits. They have made it clear any such proposal would be rejected
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2022 10:14:43 GMT
But politicians only try to do what the majority of the voting public want, they are like us, it doesn't stop them making poor tradeoffs and the Welsh taffia is famously even less organised than the English which is saying something
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Apr 22, 2022 12:20:52 GMT
My post was nothing to do with not in my backyard. I fully agree we need to adopt alternative energy solutions. However parties and councils push through planning applications because their manifestos or corporate spiel support these. My situation is that the project to install a 50mw site next to my house is purely a commercial decision by the farmer in partnership with an energy company, absolutely nothing to do with saving the planet or having an interest in creating clean energy or any concerns about local residents. The 9 wind turbines in an around the area seem a far better solution, if home owners and their neighbours plan on living in the same home long term then great, I hope your investment offers a good Roi. Unfortunately voting for any party who focus solely on carbon reduction tend to not live in the real world, like proposals to charge employees 400 quid a year to park at work with absolutely no thought about how public transport would work to reach industrial estates etc as an alternative to using the car. Politicians seem to just focus on charging people rather than come up with an acceptable sensible solution that provides carbon reduction and real life cost savings. I am a bit confused though, we have managed to modify the cost of solar energy to the point where it is financially less than say a fossil fueled power station. This wasn't an easy task and has taken over 20 years of financial incentives to stimulate the technology to make it so (I know because I played a very small part in that work). You accept that non fossil fuel energy is better for the planet than renewable energy. Well you should as the majority of the world's scientists have signed off on this.
Yet you complain when a business man wants to install solar cells in a field which will produce energy for a considerable time, without noise, pollution, dust etc etc.
I really don't understand what the issue is, and I'd like to because these discussions are taking place all over the world at the moment and I'm finding it scary that people seem to push back for no special reason. It is like the adage "I'm not a nimby but... I don't want it there"
I do think there are more significant things to be reviewing, especially given the Russian war situation. Right now we are putting turbines in the sea and laying cables across the sea bed, both or which are open to secret attack, while solar and wind on shore would be less open to secret attack. Listening to Ms Lumley whitter on about her loss of her views annoys me when one day we may have to decide to heat old people's homes or hospitals and that time could be sooner than she thinks.
I guess the question is whether green energy should damage the 'environment' for the sake of it. Covering a field in panels from one perspective damages Ms Lumley's 'environment' if it spoils her view etc. Sticking them in an industrial or urban environment on a brownfield site is less likely to damage the 'environment'
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Apr 22, 2022 12:58:40 GMT
One thing I've seen with the proposals near me is the requirement to use hundreds of tonnes of concrete to make "pads" for the cranes to lift the turbines etc into place, surely it cant be beyond the wit of man to develop something reusable Eg large steel plates that could be moved between sites.
ditto the need to build roads for the cranes could we not develop a crawler crane that doesn't need the tonnes of concrete per metre to build an access road
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 22, 2022 13:33:36 GMT
Which I suppose brings me back to the point of incentives to have these on your doorstep. Interestingly I recently asked why there is no proposal for an offshore wind farm in Cardiff bay and was told that the politician felt it would damage the views and tourism in Cardiff, and that this outweighed the benefits. They have made it clear any such proposal would be rejected Or, just p'raps, Cardiff Bay isn't a great place since it's basically a sheltered, east-facing bit of the Severn Estuary, less than 10 miles across to Weston-super-Mud? Look at where existing offshore wind is... www.windenergynetwork.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/A1-Map_Issue-57-WEB.pdfTidal makes far more sense for the Severn, and there was a big proposal for it a few years ago - but it fell out of favour, partly on environmental grounds, partly because of lack of funding from Westminster... www.thenational.wales/environment/19819728.severn-tidal-energy-barrage-scrapped-last-time/
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Apr 22, 2022 13:37:36 GMT
But politicians only try to do what the majority of the voting public want, they are like us, it doesn't stop them making poor tradeoffs and the Welsh taffia is famously even less organised than the English which is saying something the Taffia in the Sennedd is organised, to fill each others pockets ! They are looking to increase numbers of AMs as they are over worked, each already represents far less members of the public than an MP. And as to councillors 33 in BG an area with 69,000 people so approximately 1 per 2,000 people. Other councils I can think of have 1 councillor for 8-10,000 population. And as I remember some years ago a local town council clerk was on over £100,000 PA as he said his job was comparable to the PM
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mogish
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Post by mogish on Apr 22, 2022 15:09:44 GMT
Which I suppose brings me back to the point of incentives to have these on your doorstep. Interestingly I recently asked why there is no proposal for an offshore wind farm in Cardiff bay and was told that the politician felt it would damage the views and tourism in Cardiff, and that this outweighed the benefits. They have made it clear any such proposal would be rejected Exactly, as i said i dont oppose the panels for what they offer , but if this is the future and the countryside is going to be targeted for sites, then surely a compromise is to be reached. Offer me free electric for life and high hedges planted around my garden to block them from my view, then we all move forward. To have a sea of mirrors outside Mrs Lumleys conservatory aint on.
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iano
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Post by iano on Apr 22, 2022 18:22:47 GMT
If it helps in any way to allay fears.
Without knowing the details of the proposed site I couldn't comment specifically on your case but as I understand it an environmental impact assessment (a glint and glare study) is carried out as part of this process. Given the absorption rate of the panels themselves and the anti-reflective coating coupled with the deliberate orientation of the panels to the optimal angle of incidence with the sun throughout the day (something difficult to achieve with rooftop installations etc.) I very much doubt that they would be mirror like to objects at ground level to any non-trivial distance - that would likely be very dangerous.
The largest solar installation in the UK is Shotwick Solar Park, which aside from a small area facing the adjacent industrial park is masked by large hedgerows where it would normally have been visible by road - the rest is open but just surrounded by empty fields, I've seen similar with others. This one site alone at optimal output generates about 72MW of power, another 499 of them (a minute fraction of land space) and the entire country would be powered at peak consumption without any other source of energy (obviously that's an absolutely perfect scenario and we're still not going to do this as night would present a major problem without storage) but this does mean we're not going to blanket the entire country with them.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Apr 22, 2022 19:02:28 GMT
Which I suppose brings me back to the point of incentives to have these on your doorstep. Interestingly I recently asked why there is no proposal for an offshore wind farm in Cardiff bay and was told that the politician felt it would damage the views and tourism in Cardiff, and that this outweighed the benefits. They have made it clear any such proposal would be rejected Or, just p'raps, Cardiff Bay isn't a great place since it's basically a sheltered, east-facing bit of the Severn Estuary, less than 10 miles across to Weston-super-Mud? Look at where existing offshore wind is... www.windenergynetwork.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/A1-Map_Issue-57-WEB.pdfTidal makes far more sense for the Severn, and there was a big proposal for it a few years ago - but it fell out of favour, partly on environmental grounds, partly because of lack of funding from Westminster... www.thenational.wales/environment/19819728.severn-tidal-energy-barrage-scrapped-last-time/That's a bit rich coming from somebody who's closest source of sand is probably a bunker on the local golf course.
As a lad I grew up on the coast of Somerset, and the highlight of the summer holidays was a trip to Weston (donkeys, speed boats and candy floss). I don't recall seeing anything other than sand. If you want mud you need to go further west to places like Watchet or Minehead. Who would ever think that building a harbour facing up the severn estuary (and catching all the mud and silt that flows westward) was a good idea?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 23, 2022 11:36:12 GMT
...catching all the mud and silt... There's a word I had to read twice.
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Post by crabbyoldgit on Apr 23, 2022 14:08:04 GMT
One of the interesting arguments I have read says that as wind and solar become cheaper and cheaper relative to fossil fuel the existing generation model to cope with peak possible demand could change. At present we have generating capacity availabe,not in maintance down time of say 110% in case of a unit falling off line. However we may in the future have a capacity of say 300%
which would cope with full demand in poor to moderate conditions. On windy days most turbines would be turned off, but it would still be cheaper than fossil fuel or massive storage the need for which would be considerably reduced as it would be required for shorter periods of time and less peak capacity.
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