keitha
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2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Post by keitha on Mar 21, 2023 20:16:42 GMT
Lighten up people. They reflect our society . Most of you must live in a middle class bubble.... Compared to the rest of the world we are the most tolerant society around ,including our police force who have to deal with our  and it rubs off. Honestly I believe they reflect the UK of 30 years ago, I hope and believe that most of us have moved on. I look back and think football crowds were bad back then but have changed, although the "old values" still seem to break through occasionally. what was more shocking to me that MO19 and DaDP seemed to be free to spend as they liked and overtime etc was automatically approved when others were suffering cuts
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Post by martin44 on Mar 21, 2023 23:41:15 GMT
Lighten up people.
They reflect our society . Most of you must live in a middle class bubble....
Compared to the rest of the world we are the most tolerant society around ,including our police force who have to deal with our and it rubs off.
Utter rubbish. my bold the whole lot. 1. the police today certainly do not reflect our society... society today is tolerant of women, race relations and barmy genders.. 2. 99% of people in this country do not live in a middle class bubble... they live in the real working class, highly taxed bubble. 3. and finally "our police force who have to deal with our and it rubs off" WHAT... so police have to deal with and we should therefor accept the police acting like ?... text edits.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Mar 22, 2023 9:20:18 GMT
society today is tolerant of ... barmy genders.. Not all, apparently. Care to provide a source for that figure? The Great British Class Survey in 2011 came up with the following: Elite : 6% Established Middle Class : 25% Technical Middle Class : 6% New Affluent Workers : 15% Traditional Working Class : 14% Emergent Service Sector : 19% Precariat : 15%
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james100
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Post by james100 on Mar 22, 2023 11:22:39 GMT
I'd be surprised if any woman who's ever lived in the London area was remotely shocked by this report. And all the backside-covering 'bad apple' apologists who belittle women fearful for their safety are an utter disgrace. Mark Rowley's statement gave me no confidence he understands the impact whatsoever. I have unlimited admiration for the decent officers - particularly the women - who have been working in this environment. Absolutely shameful. If there is a culture of you're either one of the team or you're ostracised that is going to encourage erstwhile decent officers to behave badly. What set of rules should be top down enforced that could stop this? I think its impossible. I don't believe any decent officer can be sufficiently 'encouraged' by fellow team members to commit the offences detailed in the review, including rape, assault and harassment, humiliating and denying opportunity for criminal justice to victims of violence on the basis of their sex, belittling and bullying female colleagues etc. Birds of a feather flock together though....and indeed the report criticises that "It [The Met] has not recognised that such men (and it is largely men) may be attracted to policing in the first place due to the power it gives them, or that predatory and repeat behaviour is a feature of such crime, or that the control they exert means that victims are less likely to report."The report in full, which touches on the latter part of your question, here: www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/met/about-us/baroness-casey-review/update-march-2023/baroness-casey-review-march-2023.pdf
I do also see people who like to consider themselves as 'decent' studiously avoiding confrontation in situations that clearly jeopardise the safety of women and children and I have some sympathy for that cowardice when the consequences relate to personal livelihood and safety. But it is limited because they are complicit; the remit of their role - paid for by the public purse - is specifically public protection. And frankly my sympathy is spread thinly enough elsewhere.
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Post by batchoy on Mar 22, 2023 11:53:39 GMT
If there is a culture of you're either one of the team or you're ostracised that is going to encourage erstwhile decent officers to behave badly. What set of rules should be top down enforced that could stop this? I think its impossible. I don't believe any decent officer can be sufficiently 'encouraged' by fellow team members to commit the offences detailed in the review, including rape, assault and harassment, humiliating and denying opportunity for criminal justice to victims of violence on the basis of their sex, belittling and bullying female colleagues etc. I have to disagree with you, I have seen it first hand, not in the police but in businesses I have worked in, where a crowd mentality takes over and people act out of character partly fit to in with their colleagues and partly in self-defence lest they become victim of the workplace culture. Commenting on the report, unfortunately I don't find the report in anyway surprising attitudes in the MET don't seem to have moved on from the 1950's, and various reports over the decades have highlighted that society has moved on in terms of racism, misogyny, homophobia etc but the MET haven't. What I find disturbing but not surprising is Sir Mark Rowley’s refusal to accept and use the term ‘Institutional’ highlighting that the obfuscation and denial highlighted in the report exists at head of the organisation.
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Post by bracknellboy on Mar 22, 2023 12:40:30 GMT
If there is a culture of you're either one of the team or you're ostracised that is going to encourage erstwhile decent officers to behave badly. What set of rules should be top down enforced that could stop this? I think its impossible. Birds of a feather flock together though....and indeed the report criticises that "It [The Met] has not recognised that such men (and it is largely men) may be attracted to policing in the first place due to the power it gives them, or that predatory and repeat behaviour is a feature of such crime, or that the control they exert means that victims are less likely to report."The report in full, which touches on the latter part of your question, here: www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/met/about-us/baroness-casey-review/update-march-2023/baroness-casey-review-march-2023.pdf
I do also see people who like to consider themselves as 'decent' studiously avoiding confrontation in situations that clearly jeopardise the safety of women and children and I have some sympathy for that cowardice when the consequences relate to personal livelihood and safety. But it is limited because they are complicit; the remit of their role - paid for by the public purse - is specifically public protection. And frankly my sympathy is spread thinly enough elsewhere.My wife was 30 yrs TVP. I don't doubt that the vast majority of people entering the police force - any of the forces - are doing so for the right reasons: namely a wish to do good and protect the vulnerable. While never part of the Met, over the years she had enough occasions to have dealings with them. Also quite a lot of experience of officers that transferred from TVP to the Met (and some that came back). It was / is a common thing in the south of TVP due to ability to commute into area, the significant increase in salaries, and the inducements offered by the Met. While TVP has its own problems, she was never very flattering about the Met to put it mildly. That includes the time that she had to deal with a Met officer that was an (alleged) domestic violence perpetrator. Her experience of liaising with the Met was "sub-optimal" to say the least. And the (alleged) abuser was a particularly unpleasant individual. It of course is of no surprise that individual officers may exhibit homophobic, racist, misogynistic behaviours as individuals towards the general public. They are after all drawn from the general population, and the standard of the recruitment process which you might hope would whittle it down has been poor for a good few years. I am however staggered to the degree that seems to have been exhibited internally and while maybe not endemic at least 'clustered' in groups of like minded individuals such as to be able to make others life a misery. I find it difficult to grasp given that my wife's teams in the last few years had plenty of lesbian/gay/racially diverse etc. officer representation. Those behaviours just would not have been able to gain a foothold. And of course then there are the many millions of £s that are spent on putting officers through "diversity and inclusivity" training, regularly. How significant numbers have managed to not get called out for their behaviours is mind blowing, and simply reeks of embedded protected cultures/networks. Back in her early years, of course behaviour by superiors to junior female officers was appalling. Her career was significantly damaged in those early years because of it. In later years, bullying from some male superiors was also not unknown. From her telling, the standard of recruitment (TVP but I'm sure it is wider) dropped significantly over the years. Not 'academically' - you have for quite sometime had to have a policing degree or have ANO degree, or get recruited in and do a policing degree - but in terms of 'character'. So has the tolerance for behaviour which would cast reasonable doubt on 'good character'. It shocked her, and she had several occasions where she was in effect overruled by HR. I know of at least a couple of occasions in more recent times where she red flagged someone, it was ignored/pushed aside, and later on they went on to be a major problem. This of course should be of no surprise to anyone given recent occurrences of officers (Warranted or otherwise) taking and sharing distressing pictures at crime scenes. I know that TVP itself is in danger of getting 'hollowed out'. Many good experienced officers are leaving, and newer officers are not staying the course. That is a process that has been happening for a while - as I understand it - and is because its just become too difficult a place to want to work. Workload, pressure, and the inability to focus on what many officers think they should be doing rather than what they are mostly required to do. I have a friend who's daughter was very keen to join, jumped through various hoops (unnecessary delays etc.), and then left before her first year was up. This was a smart individual who could have been a long term asset to the force. She has of course found a job that is much better paid. On the last bolded point. That bought to my mind an episode of probably around 18 years ago now, when I was in London. As I emerged from my local tube station, I spotted a young woman being seriously harangued and at some possible physical danger (being swung around) by what clearly was her boyfriend. I decided I needed to intervene and was about to do so. But I'm not a big guy and so it was with some apprehension. Thankfully there was another guy a few yards away, I looked at him and said something, and we both raced across the road together.
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michaelc
Member of DD Central
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Post by michaelc on Mar 22, 2023 13:40:44 GMT
If there is a culture of you're either one of the team or you're ostracised that is going to encourage erstwhile decent officers to behave badly. What set of rules should be top down enforced that could stop this? I think its impossible. Birds of a feather flock together though....and indeed the report criticises that "It [The Met] has not recognised that such men (and it is largely men) may be attracted to policing in the first place due to the power it gives them, or that predatory and repeat behaviour is a feature of such crime, or that the control they exert means that victims are less likely to report."The report in full, which touches on the latter part of your question, here: www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/met/about-us/baroness-casey-review/update-march-2023/baroness-casey-review-march-2023.pdf
I do also see people who like to consider themselves as 'decent' studiously avoiding confrontation in situations that clearly jeopardise the safety of women and children and I have some sympathy for that cowardice when the consequences relate to personal livelihood and safety. But it is limited because they are complicit; the remit of their role - paid for by the public purse - is specifically public protection. And frankly my sympathy is spread thinly enough elsewhere.Pack mentality. You don't need to be the one committing the worst crimes. You just tag along, don't grass anyone up and don't kick back against dozens of your colleagues who are already part of it. It happens all over society. Just piping up and say its totally wrong and abhorrent will change nothing. I'm asking you to think what the leadership of the Met should do about it?
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james100
Member of DD Central
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Post by james100 on Mar 22, 2023 13:57:27 GMT
I don't believe any decent officer can be sufficiently 'encouraged' by fellow team members to commit the offences detailed in the review, including rape, assault and harassment, humiliating and denying opportunity for criminal justice to victims of violence on the basis of their sex, belittling and bullying female colleagues etc. Birds of a feather flock together though....and indeed the report criticises that "It [The Met] has not recognised that such men (and it is largely men) may be attracted to policing in the first place due to the power it gives them, or that predatory and repeat behaviour is a feature of such crime, or that the control they exert means that victims are less likely to report."The report in full, which touches on the latter part of your question, here: www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/met/about-us/baroness-casey-review/update-march-2023/baroness-casey-review-march-2023.pdf
I do also see people who like to consider themselves as 'decent' studiously avoiding confrontation in situations that clearly jeopardise the safety of women and children and I have some sympathy for that cowardice when the consequences relate to personal livelihood and safety. But it is limited because they are complicit; the remit of their role - paid for by the public purse - is specifically public protection. And frankly my sympathy is spread thinly enough elsewhere. Pack mentality. You don't need to be the one committing the worst crimes. You just tag along, don't grass anyone up and don't kick back against dozens of your colleagues who are already part of it. It happens all over society. Just piping up and say its totally wrong and abhorrent will change nothing. I'm asking you to think what the leadership of the Met should do about it? I'm aware of the concept of pack mentality. I also believe that there's a big difference between raiding the office stationery cupboard because your team members do it versus rape and corruption of the justice system. The latter scale does not happen all over society, and is not acceptable. To be blunt, suggesting it does reeks of the very problem that caused this situation in the first place. Likewise, telling anyone who 'pipes up' against it that it's pointless to do so... The report is well written, comprehensively researched and clear. I agree with the recommendations in the report.
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james100
Member of DD Central
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Post by james100 on Mar 22, 2023 14:07:46 GMT
I don't believe any decent officer can be sufficiently 'encouraged' by fellow team members to commit the offences detailed in the review, including rape, assault and harassment, humiliating and denying opportunity for criminal justice to victims of violence on the basis of their sex, belittling and bullying female colleagues etc. Birds of a feather flock together though....and indeed the report criticises that "It [The Met] has not recognised that such men (and it is largely men) may be attracted to policing in the first place due to the power it gives them, or that predatory and repeat behaviour is a feature of such crime, or that the control they exert means that victims are less likely to report."The report in full, which touches on the latter part of your question, here: www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/met/about-us/baroness-casey-review/update-march-2023/baroness-casey-review-march-2023.pdf
I do also see people who like to consider themselves as 'decent' studiously avoiding confrontation in situations that clearly jeopardise the safety of women and children and I have some sympathy for that cowardice when the consequences relate to personal livelihood and safety. But it is limited because they are complicit; the remit of their role - paid for by the public purse - is specifically public protection. And frankly my sympathy is spread thinly enough elsewhere. My wife was 30 yrs TVP. I don't doubt that the vast majority of people entering the police force - any of the forces - are doing so for the right reasons: namely a wish to do good and protect the vulnerable. While never part of the Met, over the years she had enough occasions to have dealings with them. Also quite a lot of experience of officers that transferred from TVP to the Met (and some that came back). It was / is a common thing in the south of TVP due to ability to commute into area, the significant increase in salaries, and the inducements offered by the Met. While TVP has its own problems, she was never very flattering about the Met to put it mildly. That includes the time that she had to deal with a Met officer that was an (alleged) domestic violence perpetrator. Her experience of liaising with the Met was "sub-optimal" to say the least. And the (alleged) abuser was a particularly unpleasant individual. It of course is of no surprise that individual officers may exhibit homophobic, racist, misogynistic behaviours as individuals towards the general public. They are after all drawn from the general population, and the standard of the recruitment process which you might hope would whittle it down has been poor for a good few years. I am however staggered to the degree that seems to have been exhibited internally and while maybe not endemic at least 'clustered' in groups of like minded individuals such as to be able to make others life a misery. I find it difficult to grasp given that my wife's teams in the last few years had plenty of lesbian/gay/racially diverse etc. officer representation. Those behaviours just would not have been able to gain a foothold. And of course then there are the many millions of £s that are spent on putting officers through "diversity and inclusivity" training, regularly. How significant numbers have managed to not get called out for their behaviours is mind blowing, and simply reeks of embedded protected cultures/networks. Back in her early years, of course behaviour by superiors to junior female officers was appalling. Her career was significantly damaged in those early years because of it. In later years, bullying from some male superiors was also not unknown. From her telling, the standard of recruitment (TVP but I'm sure it is wider) dropped significantly over the years. Not 'academically' - you have for quite sometime had to have a policing degree or have ANO degree, or get recruited in and do a policing degree - but in terms of 'character'. So has the tolerance for behaviour which would cast reasonable doubt on 'good character'. It shocked her, and she had several occasions where she was in effect overruled by HR. I know of at least a couple of occasions in more recent times where she red flagged someone, it was ignored/pushed aside, and later on they went on to be a major problem. This of course should be of no surprise to anyone given recent occurrences of officers (Warranted or otherwise) taking and sharing distressing pictures at crime scenes. I know that TVP itself is in danger of getting 'hollowed out'. Many good experienced officers are leaving, and newer officers are not staying the course. That is a process that has been happening for a while - as I understand it - and is because its just become too difficult a place to want to work. Workload, pressure, and the inability to focus on what many officers think they should be doing rather than what they are mostly required to do. I have a friend who's daughter was very keen to join, jumped through various hoops (unnecessary delays etc.), and then left before her first year was up. This was a smart individual who could have been a long term asset to the force. She has of course found a job that is much better paid. On the last bolded point. That bought to my mind an episode of probably around 18 years ago now, when I was in London. As I emerged from my local tube station, I spotted a young woman being seriously harangued and at some possible physical danger (being swung around) by what clearly was her boyfriend. I decided I needed to intervene and was about to do so. But I'm not a big guy and so it was with some apprehension. Thankfully there was another guy a few yards away, I looked at him and said something, and we both raced across the road together. I am going to politely bow out of this thread as the subject makes me too f*cking angry. Just wanted to say that your wife deserves a medal.
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michaelc
Member of DD Central
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Post by michaelc on Mar 22, 2023 14:12:16 GMT
Pack mentality. You don't need to be the one committing the worst crimes. You just tag along, don't grass anyone up and don't kick back against dozens of your colleagues who are already part of it. It happens all over society. Just piping up and say its totally wrong and abhorrent will change nothing. I'm asking you to think what the leadership of the Met should do about it? I'm aware of the concept of pack mentality. I also believe that there's a big difference between raiding the office stationery cupboard because your team members do it versus rape and corruption of the justice system. The latter scale does not happen all over society, and is not acceptable. To be blunt, suggesting it does reeks of the very problem that caused this situation in the first place. Likewise, telling anyone who 'pipes up' against it that it's pointless to do so... The report is well written, comprehensively researched and clear. I agree with the recommendations in the report. By "piping up" I didn't mean the report or even you. I meant the person in the organisation who is being persuaded to join the club. "raiding the office cupboard" is one example. Nazi Germany is at the other extreme. Inbetween we have bullying (some of it extreme) taking place in our schools. None of us want any of it. How to solve it is the problem. Take the recommendations of the report. I can't believe human nature will be solved by doing that.
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travolta
Member of DD Central
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Post by travolta on Mar 22, 2023 16:14:07 GMT
Maybe I'm very tolerant ,but I do find that groups of single sexes get up to strange strategies to 'test ' the opposite sex when they are seen to intrude .
Women ,not so much but they too can get peculiar and have pack mentality.
I was the only female in my studio and the others always felt that they had to measure their penis's with bits of string and other displays until they got used to me.
My next door neighbour is an ex policewoman and was summond to her inspector's office where he sat ,fully exposed by his desk ,to greet her. She smiled and ignored it.
Its not misongyny per se, probably a security blanket from the ignorant and vulnerable who try rough humour to test you.
As for policemen : I don't think most of the general public have any idea of the people or brutal situations that they might have to deal with or how it affects them .
WE need to be more tolerant and less sanctimonious . People ARE VERY QUEER .
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Post by martin44 on Mar 22, 2023 21:18:59 GMT
I don't believe any decent officer can be sufficiently 'encouraged' by fellow team members to commit the offences detailed in the review, including rape, assault and harassment, humiliating and denying opportunity for criminal justice to victims of violence on the basis of their sex, belittling and bullying female colleagues etc. Birds of a feather flock together though....and indeed the report criticises that "It [The Met] has not recognised that such men (and it is largely men) may be attracted to policing in the first place due to the power it gives them, or that predatory and repeat behaviour is a feature of such crime, or that the control they exert means that victims are less likely to report."The report in full, which touches on the latter part of your question, here: www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/met/about-us/baroness-casey-review/update-march-2023/baroness-casey-review-march-2023.pdf
I do also see people who like to consider themselves as 'decent' studiously avoiding confrontation in situations that clearly jeopardise the safety of women and children and I have some sympathy for that cowardice when the consequences relate to personal livelihood and safety. But it is limited because they are complicit; the remit of their role - paid for by the public purse - is specifically public protection. And frankly my sympathy is spread thinly enough elsewhere. Pack mentality. You don't need to be the one committing the worst crimes. You just tag along, don't grass anyone up and don't kick back against dozens of your colleagues who are already part of it. It happens all over society. Just piping up and say its totally wrong and abhorrent will change nothing. I'm asking you to think what the leadership of the Met should do about it? It will change the piper uppers life for good... because the corrupt majority will ruin their life and career for good.
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and it rubs off.
