bjorn
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Post by bjorn on Sept 18, 2015 19:27:56 GMT
Anybody looked at or tried Property Partner (www.propertypartner.co)?
They've been going less than a year and seem to be growing pretty quickly. They've got nearly 4k investors which puts them in a similar ballpark to Saving Stream on that count. The site is quite impressive too. I feel like a few p2p platforms could learn a thing or two from them. These are all less important incidental observations ...
As for fundamentals, it all comes down to what sort of returns you can get. They quote an average of 13% after fees. But as the yields are in the range 2-4%, this must include capital growth. And that's obviously pretty unpredictable. There's also the question of how easy it is to sell your "shares" onwards on the secondary market. There's plenty up for sale at premiums to current valuations but I wonder how much actually shifts? My guess is there's a lot of people having a pop at flipping for a profit. But maybe not much actually being sold. If it's not easy to sell on the SM then you're locked in for five years and other p2p platforms would be preferable.
I guess they're starting in London because that's where they're based and they probably have much better knowledge and can consolidate all sorts of services if they stick to a region, but I can't help thinking that they ought to look at other provincial towns where yields are much higher (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/buy-to-let/11633681/Buy-to-let-hotspots-for-2015-revealed.html) If they could guarantee a yield of 8% or so and then the speculative and unpredictable element of capital growth was a bonus on top of that, I think the whole proposition would be much more compelling. Maybe the fact that the properties are listed under Properties/UK is a little clue that they might offer some overseas options before long.
Anybody have any thoughts, insights or experiences?
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webwiz
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Post by webwiz on Sept 18, 2015 21:38:38 GMT
I am registered but not invested as their properties are all in London with low yields and possibly inflated prices.
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bjorn
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Post by bjorn on Sept 19, 2015 7:09:42 GMT
I am registered but not invested as their properties are all in London with low yields and possibly inflated prices. That was my feeling. After posting I came across their returns analysis here: d2ofd11qqzygs0.cloudfront.net/files/property-partner-total-return-analysis.zip which shows how they get their 13% average total return figure. What's interesting is that the capital gains have been quite variable and barring one or two star performers (like a flat in Whitechapel which went up 20%+ in 6 months), they haven't been that impressive. The method of extrapolating from historic capital gains to give an annualised rate also feels a bit sketchy to me since an annualized tends to suggest you can expect this year in year out. When of course something that's risen quickly in recent months or years is probably less likely to continue at that rate. Which is why I reckon that a model that's weighted towards a higher (and dependable) yield would be better. For what it's worth, I noted that a couple of their board directors are also on the board of Fiscally Challenged.
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webwiz
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Post by webwiz on Sept 19, 2015 8:00:52 GMT
I chose Property Moose instead. They buy properties in the North where yields are better. Capital gains have been less than in London in the past, but I cannot fortell the future. With PM all really depends on their competence as landlords, but if they prove to be OK (too early to say) this platform seems an easy way of participating in buy to let without the hassle.
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bigfoot12
Member of DD Central
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Post by bigfoot12 on Sept 19, 2015 8:19:19 GMT
I am registered but not invested as their properties are all in London with low yields and possibly inflated prices. Are you suggesting that London properties have inflated prices, or that there is something about those on Property Partner in particular?
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webwiz
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Post by webwiz on Sept 19, 2015 9:19:12 GMT
I am registered but not invested as their properties are all in London with low yields and possibly inflated prices. Are you suggesting that London properties have inflated prices, or that there is something about those on Property Partner in particular? The former. I would expect, but do not know, that PP would if anything buy at a discount.
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bjorn
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Post by bjorn on Sept 19, 2015 9:27:19 GMT
I would expect, but do not know, that PP would if anything buy at a discount. I couldn't see any indication of that. But from what I can see that's a key part of Property Moose's model. Which to me seems to make more sense: target below market value properties with high yields so that both capital growth and yield are locked in to a greater extent. On Property Moose, how easy is it to sell out of an investment early? With them doing BMV purchases, it seems like there's quite a lot of potential for flippers if there's a way to get an accurate and up-to-date market valuation (as Property Partner seem to provide).
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webwiz
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Post by webwiz on Sept 19, 2015 10:04:54 GMT
I agree with your first paragraph.
This is from their site:
...you can sell your shares at any point during the investment term either by finding a buyer or asking us to try and find a buyer from the Crowd. This is possible because you will hold actual shares in a limited company. To ensure the Crowd is managed safely and securely, these shares can only be sold or transferred through Property Moose and at nominal value (i.e. the amount you initially invested). You will incur a 2.5% administrative charge to cover our legal costs in dealing with the transfer.
We are working to create a live secondary market that will make these transactions faster and more straightforward to administer. Watch this space!
I have no personal experience of this. I would not recommend investing any money that you might need in less than 2 years (3 years for some properties) and you should be aware of the danger that you might be outvoted at the end of that period and be unable to exit then.
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Liz
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Post by Liz on Sept 19, 2015 10:13:51 GMT
Aren't fees high on PM, maybe the nature of the beast.
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webwiz
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Post by webwiz on Sept 19, 2015 11:31:43 GMT
Aren't fees high on PM, maybe the nature of the beast. See propertymoose.co.uk/feesUp to you whether you consider these to be high. Personally I think a more important factor is the costs of running the tenancies which is what I meant by "competence as landlords". I have only limited and indirect experience of managing a buy-to-let (my daughter has one) but I think there could be a wide variation in these costs depending on the ability PM. This is an unknown factor at present.
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Post by webbski9 on Sept 19, 2015 15:48:11 GMT
Yes, joined a while back along with some others on this forum.So far,so good.
Well managed with a very good website ,it's essentially Buy-To-Let without the admin problems.
Yes, they are , at the moment only investing in London,particularly anywhere near the new Crossrail stations.
However, they have recently raised some impressive financial backing and will, no doubt, expand outside London and quite possibly abroad.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Sept 21, 2015 14:00:20 GMT
I would expect, but do not know, that PP would if anything buy at a discount. I couldn't see any indication of that. But from what I can see that's a key part of Property Moose's model. Which to me seems to make more sense: target below market value properties with high yields so that both capital growth and yield are locked in to a greater extent. On Property Moose, how easy is it to sell out of an investment early? With them doing BMV purchases, it seems like there's quite a lot of potential for flippers if there's a way to get an accurate and up-to-date market valuation (as Property Partner seem to provide). AIUI, The House Crowd model is the same. Big differences with THC is that there's virtually no secondary market, so you have to plan on staying invested as long as other investors wish to stay invested -- based on majority vote annually, starting after three or five years depending on the initially expected holding time. THC do offer to try to find a buyer for any shares you want to sell, and AFAIK they've been successful. I've invested through THC and while I've seen an occasional announcement that they have some shares available that investors wish to sell, I don't think I've ever seen them need to repeat that announcement, so I presume they got takers. But I think it's an expensive process for the seller, so if you invest with them you shouldn't expect to sell your shares early except in case of emergency.
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