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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2015 12:10:29 GMT
Ed spent a fair bit of time discussing how the accounts would work and tried to take into "account" all the views at the time. My view is they are actually long term loans with get-outs every 6 months rather than 6 month loans that roll over. I suspect if there were just more deals in the £100k to £200k mark everyone would be happy for the next six months, but, since all portals are struggling to find what they can, we just have to live with what is offered.
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james
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Post by james on Nov 22, 2015 12:16:28 GMT
...Fair and unfair don't exist. People claiming otherwise are self-interested, pushing to gain advantage over other investors. ... Bots are the spawn of the devil, giving (other, more technically literate) people an unfair advantage and should be banned. ... I generally agree with you but there is some inconsistency between your first and second sentences. Consider some of the transactions I've seen on Bondora's secondary market, where a borrower is late and a discount to the capital value has been offered. Fifteen seconds after the borrower pays and remove the late status the loan is bought, before the seller has had a chance to change the price or remove the listing. Perhaps while the original owner is asleep. This is a common transaction type there, though those who do it tend to claim that they are not using automated tools to do it. It's one of the reasons why I'm strongly against bots. The Bondora situation isn't helped by Bondora flatly refusing to provide a way to automatically delist the loan when a payment is made, forcing sellers to be at the mercy of such buying practices. With an API specifically for automated tools being developed by Bondora I assume that Bondora will be accepting more of this sort of exploitation. This sort of thing - a failure to act in what I consider to be an ethical way - is one reason why I'm not investing more at Bondora and am recommending against the place, though the poor risk-adjusted returns make it even easier to make such recommendations.
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ben
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Post by ben on Nov 22, 2015 12:43:40 GMT
You can never please everyone, from MT point of view they already have the money invested so why would they create the extra work finding the money again and risk not being able to fill it (granted not very likely) .
I am in very few of them as not been on MT that long but if I had originally and I kept getting kicked out every 6 months and having to apply again every 6 months I am not sure I would be to impressed.
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ianj
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Post by ianj on Nov 22, 2015 12:43:57 GMT
So, Fair and unfair don't exist. People claiming otherwise are self-interested, pushing to gain advantage over other investors. Bots are the spawn of the devil, giving (other, more technically literate) people an unfair advantage and should be banned. disclaimer: I have never used bots. It's a total mystery to me why platforms persist with first come first served, when it is so simple to use targets/prefunding to allocate loan parts. I assume they wish to develop allure through scarcity. I don't like platforms which promote lemming mentality. I generally agree with you but there is some inconsistency between your first and second sentences. Without inconsistency between an individual's personal views, the concept of cognitive dissonance would cease to exist, which would be a great shame as the phrase has such elegance.
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Post by reeknralf on Nov 22, 2015 14:51:48 GMT
Does dissonance only arise when you express obviously contradictory opinions within a single post?
The Bondora problem only arises if you mis-price loans. If you price an overdue loan to sell, it will (usually) sell before it has time to make any repayment. If you price it to sell if it should make a repayment, it will sell if it should make a repayment. You only get suckered, if you price it too high to sell as an overdue, but beneath what it's worth as a current. Of course most of the loans on the sm are priced according to 'there's one born every minute, I hope he comes my way'.
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james
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Post by james on Nov 22, 2015 16:32:58 GMT
The Bondora problem only arises if you mis-price loans. If you price an overdue loan to sell, it will (usually) sell before it has time to make any repayment. If you price it to sell if it should make a repayment, it will sell if it should make a repayment. You only get suckered, if you price it too high to sell as an overdue, but beneath what it's worth as a current. Of course most of the loans on the sm are priced according to 'there's one born every minute, I hope he comes my way'. A payment can be made at any time during the week. Less likely at weekends but it still happens sometimes. How is a seller supposed to price a loan "to sell" when ten seconds after making the sale offer a payment could arrive and make the price obsolete, with a buyer then exploiting that change before the seller has even logged out? There is no price that is both fair to a buyer of a late loan and fair to a buyer of a non-late loan. The two prices are different. If you price to sell as an impaired loan that automatically means that the price if it is not impaired is too low. Price it as non-impaired and it will either not sell or sell slowly. The seller loses whichever price they use. A seller has no control over when the payment arrives. A buyer can buy from all the "priced to sell" sellers soon after the payment has been made. The buyers can't practically all reprice their sale offers so there is likely to be a reward for the buyer who can pick the sellers who are giving the most fair price for the impaired loan, when it is no longer impaired or so impaired. The practical solutions to this require Bonora to act and take the loans of the market if the seller has indicated a desire to do that. One next best approach is the one I use: doing the "at risk of payment" offers only at times when there is reduced risk of a payment being made. That's a lot more work for me but not as much work as writing a bot specifically to check all of the discounted loans I have for sale every few seconds all day. That approach would also add a lot of unnecessary load to the Bondora servers. So, you suggest that the loan are mis-priced. Tell me what single price you could set that is correct for an impaired loan with no payments for seven weeks that you want "priced to sell" and the same loan after a payment has been made which makes it current if the payment is made one minute after you place it for sale and a buyer then buys it eight seconds after the payment is made. I'm not sure that most loans on the secondary market are priced for suckers. Something like half of all loans which sell do so in less than a day and they will significantly magnify the apparent number that are priced too high, which just sit around without a buyer unless a sucker comes along.
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Post by reeknralf on Nov 22, 2015 18:40:13 GMT
So, you suggest that the loan are mis-priced. Tell me what single price you could set that is correct for an impaired loan with no payments for seven weeks that you want "priced to sell" and the same loan after a payment has been made which makes it current if the payment is made one minute after you place it for sale and a buyer then buys it eight seconds after the payment is made. The first loan is borderline worthless. Perhaps a 90-95% discount. The second is rarer than hen's teeth, and so difficult to price. It is still a near certainty to default, but people still seem prepared to buy such loans, just because they're current. Perhaps a 20% discount. But it's not my guesses that matter. Just put your toe in the water, and you soon work out at what price loans will sell. If they're sitting around for more than a week, they're over-priced.
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Post by uncletone on Nov 22, 2015 18:46:12 GMT
Could we gently steer this Bondora discussion away from MoneyThing's forum if it's going any further?
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duck
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Post by duck on Nov 23, 2015 7:16:15 GMT
..... I worry that some new lenders might feel they are not being treated well and, in turn, may dissuade them from staying. It may also stop members from joining and ultimately, reduce the size and number of deals the platform can fill long term. ...... My personal circumstances changed a few months ago (no longer locked in offices that have no phones or connections with the outside world) and this has made MT a viable proposition for me, so both my partner and I are now lenders.
Do I feel disadvantaged, no.
Have I gone a bit high (in cash & % terms) on the large loans, yes. Is that % dropping as I drip feed in the smaller loans, yes. Do I see that situation to continue to improve, yes. For me, having access to the smaller loans (no matter if the loan limits are low) makes the difference. If I only had access to a couple of supercars and a large building development my comfort zone would be lower and this would be reflected in the amounts I was prepared to invest.
So far a positive experience that I hope/expect to continue...... I aim to stick around!
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james
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Post by james on Nov 23, 2015 14:50:55 GMT
I've already broken my max allocation rules with the three loans currently available and I'll try to fix this when we get the SM. One thing that would help me to invest in this loan would be knowing more about how the secondary market will work. I might choose to put in much more than I otherwise would if I thought I could reliably sell after a fairly short time while still getting interest for the time invested.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Nov 23, 2015 14:56:28 GMT
I've already broken my max allocation rules with the three loans currently available and I'll try to fix this when we get the SM. One thing that would help me to invest in this loan would be knowing more about how the secondary market will work. I might choose to put in much more than I otherwise would if I thought I could reliably sell after a fairly short time while still getting interest for the time invested. Take a look at the Secondary Market thread. Ed's intention was that it will work along the same lines as the Saving Stream SM (only hopefully without crashing, and continuing to pay interest whilst parts are listed for sale)
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james
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Post by james on Nov 23, 2015 15:03:10 GMT
Thanks, I'd already read it all and always wonder about what the difference might be between initial thoughts and final delivery. Agree with you about the actually working aspect.
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Investboy
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Trying to recover from P2P revolution
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Post by Investboy on Nov 26, 2015 16:58:24 GMT
I was unlucky too. Once it reappeared after frantic refreshing, put my bid to only see a message "too late".
Maybe will have more luck next time... 3 more to go.
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11025
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Post by 11025 on Nov 26, 2015 17:51:31 GMT
I didn't even get that far , transferred some money over this morning at about 10 and still showing as "pending " , not experienced this length of delay before.
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Post by pepperpot on Nov 26, 2015 18:03:15 GMT
I didn't even get that far , transferred some money over this morning at about 10 and still showing as "pending " , not experienced this length of delay before. There's a note on the deposit & withdrawal pages; "Please note that deposits & withdrawals will be processed less frequently on the 26th of November, due to staff training. "
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