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Post by manxfinch on Dec 6, 2015 10:13:41 GMT
Dear All
This morning I asked Ed the following question ... "Having now delivered the SM (on time and - so far - glitch free) are you considering a "pre-funding" feature for the site? If so, do you have a timeline in mind"?
Based on his response (below) he is open to hearing our views.
Ed's response was:
Morning,
To be fair, at this moment I am not sure. I know that it has been discussed before and quite a few investors have emailed me directly on the subject.
I am really in two minds at the moment, I can appreciate all the positives but I am also mindful to ensure that investors are fully aware of what they are buying into. I fear that if it gets too automated that it becomes more like a fund. I can appreciate that many would like to invest and forget with little management required.
Very happy to have the debate and perhaps it is worthy of a new thread?
Regards,
Ed
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Dec 6, 2015 11:18:25 GMT
manxfinch , the term "pre-funding" is used by different people to mean different things so it's best to be clear what your question relates to. It could be: a) "Pre-funding" as it operates on Saving Stream, where lenders indicate their "hoped for" allocation in a "pipeline" (ie. as yet unlaunched) loan without needing to transfer any cash into their accounts. Then the loan launches and they're given a grace period (funded by the platform) in which either to transfer in sufficient cash, sell down other loans or else sell some/all of their new loan allocation. Whilst it works remarkably well on SS (and has led to their exponential growth), the level of capital required by the platform to underwrite large new loans makes it very challenging. I can't really see this being a sensible route for MT in the foreseeable future. b) What I would call "Pre-bidding" (or maybe "Pledging" is better), where lenders place pre-bids in a large new loan before it launches (again without transferring cash) and, once successfully filled, the platform confirms the loan will launch at a defined date / time. Lenders must then ensure they have enough cash in their accounts to cover their pledges at the moment the loan launches; if they fail to do so, those units become "Available" to others (this might need a yellow card / red card system to avoid abuse). I can see this working OK for loans that are larger than MT can pre-fund in full with their own capital, especially in conjunction with a cashback incentive, but it would mean Shuang-time to create the "Pledging" functionality. c) Target-setting and auto-investing in existing loans on the SM, analogous to Assetz Capital. Lenders indicate the loans they'd like to buy into, load some cash into their account and then leave the "system" to divide fairly whatever loan-parts are offered for sale between all the lenders that want to buy them. This strikes me as a sledgehammer to crack a nut and means either building a system that copes with nanopence-sized loan-parts or else randomly allocates minimum sized parts (£1 per lender?) by ballot or queue. If MT start building this sort of complexity into their platform then I'll be very surprised (and disappointed). d) Something else ... Cross posted from SM thread Ive just written pretty much exactly the same post for this other thread (wont post as this is more elloquent). Couple of points that occurred to me First a platforms interpretation of FCA client money rules has influence on what system they are happy to adopt. SS are unique in not requiring funds to be availiable to invest prior to loan drawdown/allocation, AC strictest in funds having to be cleared (ie no debit card) Second - prefunding throws up its own issues which have to be weighed against the benefits. In SS case, as can be seen from various threads, small allocations create dissatisfaction amongst larger lenders; leads to attempts to game the system which is potentially unfair on smaller lenders; limits rapid diversification of larger pots; creates huge demand on SM as lenders attempt to top up meager allocations, creating another source of complaint and calls for prefunding, queuing systems for this aspect also. Option b) would appear to be the obvious choice if MT decided the need for some form of PF, but probably only necessary for sub 100k loans at moment.
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paulgul
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Post by paulgul on Dec 6, 2015 11:22:41 GMT
I can't remember off hand, what's the quickest a loan has been filled? with some of the smaller loans perhaps reducing the initial investment to below 1% might be the answer - probably easier to programme
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Monetus
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Post by Monetus on Dec 6, 2015 11:44:46 GMT
I don't really feel a pre-funding system for MT is required right now.
I think the existing system of allowing only 1% of a loan to be purchased for the first 24 hours works really well and gives everyone an opportunity to get a slice with the rest mopped up after this initial 24 hour limit.
Many MT loans still have availability after this period for quite some time and MT's website doesn't crack under pressure of multiple users - it remains fast and responsive giving everyone an equal shot at buying a larger piece.
Perhaps if the registered number of investors increases substanially then its something that MT could make a priority but for now I am perfectly happy with how things are.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Dec 6, 2015 12:45:29 GMT
Perhaps (when hes back in the office - assuming he managed to leave) Ed MoneyThing could assist this debate with some figures on average number of lenders participating in sub £100k loans/% of lender base/average investment (if available) as this seems to be the area where PF etc would be necessary if at all (Not convinced myself)
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rogerbu
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Post by rogerbu on Dec 6, 2015 13:18:09 GMT
Another vote against 'pre funding' at this time.
It is the simplicity of MT that makes it easy to use and understand.
With the 1% limits, most users are able to build a diversified portfolio.
Pre-funding really caters for those wishing to hoover up all the bits, whether bot driven or manual.
KISS!!
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jonno
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Post by jonno on Dec 6, 2015 13:38:47 GMT
On balance I'm with others above, in that I don't think pre-funding is required at the moment.However as we've seen with other platforms that doesn't mean it never will be. I don't know how fundamental such a development would be but it may well be worth The Shuang having it on his growing list so that if the need does begin to emerge the platform isn't playing catch-up amidst a salvo from extremely disgruntled investors.
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chrisf
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Post by chrisf on Dec 6, 2015 13:39:09 GMT
I also vote against pre-funding. I can understand why some new investors think that the small proportion of a loan available following a renewal should only be available to people not already in the loan, and would have no objections if that idea was adopted (as on FS). I think this would appease the people who are suggesting pre-funding?
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mikeh
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Post by mikeh on Dec 6, 2015 13:41:26 GMT
The only thing I would change is to allow multiple bids up to the 1% (or whatever) limit.
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Post by reeknralf on Dec 6, 2015 17:21:07 GMT
I don't really feel a pre-funding system for MT is required right now. I think the existing system of allowing only 1% of a loan to be purchased for the first 24 hours works really well and gives everyone an opportunity to get a slice with the rest mopped up after this initial 24 hour limit. This is just not true. When I got in from work at 6pm, I wanted to invest in the first broadoak loan. Everything had already gone. I missed plenty of cash shop loans for the same reason. The problem with asking these sort of questions on a forum, is people tend to reply thinking of what benefits them. If you have access to the internet all the time, as I'm guessing most of the previous posters do, the current set-up is good because you have first crack at loans. If like me, you don't, you want the playing field to be levelled. I don't really understand Ed's point about MT becoming fund-like. If you manually pre-bid, having had access to the loan info, nothing has changed apart from you don't need to be online at a particular time of day. Nor do I understand the above arguments that pre-bids shouldn't be introduced because they aren't strictly needed. Under this reasoning we'd still have cars without power-assisted brakes. Even if you have the time and enthusiasm to chase newly live loans, it is surely easier to be allowed to bid at a time that suits? The question is, does MT want a broader or a narrower investor base?
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paulgul
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Post by paulgul on Dec 6, 2015 17:41:42 GMT
I am really in two minds at the moment, I can appreciate all the positives but I am also mindful to ensure that investors are fully aware of what they are buying into. Regards,
Ed I'm not sure that this point is quite so important now we have an SM, any investor that realises he/she has made a mistake because of a lack of info can easily sell within a few days
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Dec 6, 2015 18:05:22 GMT
I don't really feel a pre-funding system for MT is required right now. I think the existing system of allowing only 1% of a loan to be purchased for the first 24 hours works really well and gives everyone an opportunity to get a slice with the rest mopped up after this initial 24 hour limit. This is just not true. When I got in from work at 6pm, I wanted to invest in the first broadoak loan. Everything had already gone. I missed plenty of cash shop loans for the same reason. The problem with asking these sort of questions on a forum, is people tend to reply thinking of what benefits them. If you have access to the internet all the time, as I'm guessing most of the previous posters do, the current set-up is good because you have first crack at loans. If like me, you don't, you want the playing field to be levelled. I don't really understand Ed's point about MT becoming fund-like. If you manually pre-bid, having had access to the loan info, nothing has changed apart from you don't need to be online at a particular time of day. Nor do I understand the above arguments that pre-bids shouldn't be introduced because they aren't strictly needed. Under this reasoning we'd still have cars without power-assisted brakes. Even if you have the time and enthusiasm to chase newly live loans, it is surely easier to be allowed to bid at a time that suits? The question is, does MT want a broader or a narrower investor base? The question is would PF necessarily broaden the lender base at this time? How many lenders would be happy to receive less than £500 of the Broadoak loan (assuming no gaming the system) or even less of the CS loans (£64 based on the last one) Im not sure MT has the size or volume of loans to keep even the moderately large investors interested and therefore the platform would struggle to grow. It seems unlikely that the sub £100k loans will ever provide a satisfactory allocation system even with PF introduced while the larger loans the desired result of wider participation could be achieved by reducing the max bid percentage dependent on the size of the loan. (Broadoak @ .25% would probably allow most lenders to participate with a max of £1k) Thats why Im not sure that currently PF is a necessary requirement much as I understand your point. SS drip feed some loans onto the market, maybe MT could consider doing this so that there are a number of initial windows within the 24hr restricted periods.
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Post by reeknralf on Dec 6, 2015 19:17:14 GMT
That seems like a pretty fair analysis ilmoro . I appreciate some people want £5000 in a loan not £811.27. Pre-bid needn't be pro rata, it could be a lottery, or fund in full all bids of 1% of the loan, pro rata for the rest, or anything else. Demand exceeds supply, so some form of rationing is inevitable. That said, systematically handing loans to people with the time to sit pressing F5, while giving nothing to people who have other commitments, doesn't seem like much of a solution. A healthy platform needs a broad and heterogeneous investor base.
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ben
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Post by ben on Dec 6, 2015 20:53:58 GMT
Like a few others on here, I have recently come to MT and have struggled to get a decent amount into any loans except for the last few big ones. With the smaller ones especially the renewals they have gone pretty quick so it appears to work for MT.
With the amount of loans that seem to be coming through lately (although probably too quickly in some cases) diversification will not be an issue for many in the future. At the moment the system works well, it will never please everyone.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Dec 6, 2015 21:08:25 GMT
Bear in mind that we've yet to go through even one new loan launch since the SM went live. On SS, the launch of new loans is always the trigger for diversification activity amongst existing lenders, giving plenty of scope for new lenders to pick up parts in other loans. I fully expect to see the same thing now on MT, although maybe not to the same extent initially. I have several MT loan holdings that I will look to reduce and rebalance when further new MT loans are listed. But until they are, I've no reason to sell perfectly good loan parts.
Patience mes amis!
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