ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 10,906
Likes: 11,127
|
Post by ilmoro on Sept 7, 2021 14:14:50 GMT
Fair play to the borrower but IMHO not so to ablrate. These are material issues that should have been prominently disclosed under FCA regulations given that they potentially impact the borrowers ability to repay and ASMX should have been suspended earlier as lenders will have potentially invested on incomplete information. There now needs to be a revaluation undertaken and a review of the risk profile.
|
|
|
Post by Ace on Sept 7, 2021 14:37:43 GMT
Have I read it right, if there are any interest repayments, Ablrate get their full 100% of fees & investors end up with just over 50% of it, with no mention of how or if it gets repatriated. I read it as completely opposite to that, I.e. ABLrate fees we be payed to lenders first, so ABLrate won't benefit until we've been repaid or the situation has been regularised.
|
|
ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 10,906
Likes: 11,127
|
Post by ilmoro on Sept 7, 2021 14:50:23 GMT
Have I read it right, if there are any interest repayments, Ablrate get their full 100% of fees & investors end up with just over 50% of it, with no mention of how or if it gets repatriated. I read it as completely opposite to that, I.e. ABLrate fees we be payed to lenders first, so ABLrate won't benefit until we've been repaid or the situation has been regularised. That would be the logical interpretation as ABL normally deduct their fees from the interest payment prior to paying over the net to lenders.
|
|
criston
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,204
Likes: 628
|
Post by criston on Sept 7, 2021 14:51:18 GMT
Have I read it right, if there are any interest repayments, Ablrate get their full 100% of fees & investors end up with just over 50% of it, with no mention of how or if it gets repatriated. I read it as completely opposite to that, I.e. ABLrate fees will be payed to lenders first, so ABLrate won't benefit until we've been repaid or the situation has been regularised. Your right I hope. I suppose 'applied' can mean 'derived from' . However it says 'applied to'. So good of Ablrate..
|
|
blender
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,719
Likes: 4,272
|
Post by blender on Sept 7, 2021 16:34:17 GMT
I read it as completely opposite to that, I.e. ABLrate fees we be payed to lenders first, so ABLrate won't benefit until we've been repaid or the situation has been regularised. That would be the logical interpretation as ABL normally deduct their fees from the interest payment prior to paying over the net to lenders. To be pedantic, the borrower's monthly repayments consist of interest for the lenders and fees for ablrate (a percentage of the outstanding principal), plus principal repayment for amortising loans. Ablrate will convert all amortising loans to interest only, to reduce the total monthly repayments for this loan group. My understanding is that ablrate anticipate a shortfall in the cash for repayments for the group, even as interest only, and in that event will apply all cash repayments received as interest. Quite how they are going to divi up the cash between loans as partial payments I do not know, especially as they are different borrowers and not formally in default.
|
|
criston
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,204
Likes: 628
|
Post by criston on Sept 7, 2021 16:40:59 GMT
That would be the logical interpretation as ABL normally deduct their fees from the interest payment prior to paying over the net to lenders. To be pedantic, the borrower's monthly repayments consist of interest for the lenders and fees for ablrate (a percentage of the outstanding principal), plus principal repayment for amortising loans. Ablrate will convert all amortising loans to interest only, to reduce the total monthly repayments for this loan group. My understanding is that ablrate anticipate a shortfall in the cash for repayments for the group, even as interest only, and in that event will apply all cash repayments received as interest. Quite how they are going to divi up the cash between loans as partial payments I do not know, especially as they are different borrowers and not formally in default. Once upon a time we could rely on ablrate to put us straight, but it appears sadly no more.
|
|
ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 10,906
Likes: 11,127
|
Post by ilmoro on Sept 7, 2021 16:46:33 GMT
That would be the logical interpretation as ABL normally deduct their fees from the interest payment prior to paying over the net to lenders. To be pedantic, the borrower's monthly repayments consist of interest for the lenders and fees for ablrate (a percentage of the outstanding principal), plus principal repayment for amortising loans. Ablrate will convert all amortising loans to interest only, to reduce the total monthly repayments for this loan group. My understanding is that ablrate anticipate a shortfall in the cash for repayments for the group, even as interest only, and in that event will apply all cash repayments received as interest. Quite how they are going to divi up the cash between loans as partial payments I do not know, especially as they are different borrowers and not formally in default. Just going from the FAQ "(we take this from the monthly payment and pass the net interest on to lenders through the platform)." The borrower will be charged a rate, lenders will receive a rate and the difference goes to Ablrate. The platform is supposed to disclose the full price of the loan to the borrower and then separately any fees/interest deductions. Ablrate of course doesnt do this, they give the lender rate pa and the the platform fee pm so the lender has to work out the actual price.
|
|
|
Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Sept 7, 2021 17:10:33 GMT
To be pedantic, the borrower's monthly repayments consist of interest for the lenders and fees for ablrate (a percentage of the outstanding principal), plus principal repayment for amortising loans. Ablrate will convert all amortising loans to interest only, to reduce the total monthly repayments for this loan group. My understanding is that ablrate anticipate a shortfall in the cash for repayments for the group, even as interest only, and in that event will apply all cash repayments received as interest. Quite how they are going to divi up the cash between loans as partial payments I do not know, especially as they are different borrowers and not formally in default. Once upon a time we could rely on ablrate to put us straight, but it appears sadly no more. I think it is clearly difficult for ablrate to get into much detail on a public forum. Maybe a verified investor area similar to that currently used by other 'factions' would be helpful. It would obviously involve the forum administration in some work and an interest from ablrate to use the facility. Maybe the 'depends upon' could indicate if they are willing....
|
|
blender
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,719
Likes: 4,272
|
Post by blender on Sept 7, 2021 20:05:57 GMT
To be pedantic, the borrower's monthly repayments consist of interest for the lenders and fees for ablrate (a percentage of the outstanding principal), plus principal repayment for amortising loans. Ablrate will convert all amortising loans to interest only, to reduce the total monthly repayments for this loan group. My understanding is that ablrate anticipate a shortfall in the cash for repayments for the group, even as interest only, and in that event will apply all cash repayments received as interest. Quite how they are going to divi up the cash between loans as partial payments I do not know, especially as they are different borrowers and not formally in default. Just going from the FAQ "(we take this from the monthly payment and pass the net interest on to lenders through the platform)." The borrower will be charged a rate, lenders will receive a rate and the difference goes to Ablrate. The platform is supposed to disclose the full price of the loan to the borrower and then separately any fees/interest deductions. Ablrate of course doesnt do this, they give the lender rate pa and the the platform fee pm so the lender has to work out the actual price. I did say I was being very pedantic, but 'ABL normally deduct their fees from the interest payment' is not quite right and not what the FAQ says, or means to say. There is a monthly payment, they take their fees from it and the net is the interest (and principal). Ablrate always claim to take fees and not interest - they do not lend any money on which interest can be paid, it's p2p. The full 'price' of the loan is fees and interest, as you say, and could be expressed as an annual percentage. Agreed that Abl do not do this and should do. Now why does the very attractive pig on your head, and this thread, make me think of David Cameron?
|
|
blender
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,719
Likes: 4,272
|
Post by blender on Sept 7, 2021 20:12:14 GMT
Once upon a time we could rely on ablrate to put us straight, but it appears sadly no more. I think it is clearly difficult for ablrate to get into much detail on a public forum. Maybe a verified investor area similar to that currently used by other 'factions' would be helpful. It would obviously involve the forum administration in some work and an interest from ablrate to use the facility. Maybe the 'depends upon' could indicate if they are willing.... One big advantage of a verified investor area is that you would avoid blender's stupid posts. Independent, public, anonymous are all words I like. Linking me to an account and its owner would not suit, personally.
|
|
|
Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Sept 7, 2021 20:34:21 GMT
I think it is clearly difficult for ablrate to get into much detail on a public forum. Maybe a verified investor area similar to that currently used by other 'factions' would be helpful. It would obviously involve the forum administration in some work and an interest from ablrate to use the facility. Maybe the 'depends upon' could indicate if they are willing.... One big advantage of a verified investor area is that you would avoid blender's stupid posts. Independent, public, anonymous are all words I like. Linking me to an account and its owner would not suit, personally. Actually that is my own position. However I do think if they were so inclined it would not be that hard to 'narrow down' who posters were. Especially given the giant footprints many leave. I was simply suggesting a solution for those who hope for more interaction, actually little thinking it was likely to happen. (not hard to work out that forum staff are very thin on the ground currently) I would imagine we might get special dispensation anyway, given our combined posts on this part of the forum we would have to be really odd not to be investors.
|
|
|
Post by ablrate on Sept 8, 2021 10:55:56 GMT
We don't aim to be absent on the forum, but as you can imagine we can't comment publicly. We have spent a couple of hours on the phone to the borrower this morning outlining the plans going forward and the schedule of updates that we will be giving lenders. It will probably be best for all concerned that we stick to the formal updates issued on the platform, which we aim to do on a regular (weekly) basis - or when anything material happens. At this time we are working on the information schedule and arranging discussions with all parties involved in each project to better see where our resources can be deployed to assist the borrower regularize the loans.
..and for clarity, yes any funds that would have been allocated to fees, will be allocated to lender payments during this period. We are working through how payments will be made when received and what the quantum of those payments is likely to be. We appreciate that it is a worrying time and we will do all we can to keep lenders informed of the progress, of course we are very motivated to do all we can to get the loans and the borrower back on track.
|
|
dave4
Member of DD Central
Cynical is a hobby not a lifestyle
Posts: 1,022
Likes: 591
Member is Online
|
Post by dave4 on Sept 8, 2021 14:47:26 GMT
Thank you ablrate for popping on here for a update/ chat. Weekly platform updates sound a excellent idea "Sorry to report no news this week updates" would be gratefully welcomed (Just not too many of them please). I think i can express on behalf of all lenders of funds to Andrew's ventures that we are ALL more than eager to receive the .... "Issue Fully and satisfactorily resolved" update!".Your Lenders ...
|
|
tony9239
Member of DD Central
Posts: 101
Likes: 202
|
Post by tony9239 on Sept 8, 2021 16:30:35 GMT
We don't aim to be absent on the forum, but as you can imagine we can't comment publicly. We have spent a couple of hours on the phone to the borrower this morning outlining the plans going forward and the schedule of updates that we will be giving lenders. It will probably be best for all concerned that we stick to the formal updates issued on the platform, which we aim to do on a regular (weekly) basis - or when anything material happens. At this time we are working on the information schedule and arranging discussions with all parties involved in each project to better see where our resources can be deployed to assist the borrower regularize the loans. ..and for clarity, yes any funds that would have been allocated to fees, will be allocated to lender payments during this period. We are working through how payments will be made when received and what the quantum of those payments is likely to be. We appreciate that it is a worrying time and we will do all we can to keep lenders informed of the progress, of course we are very motivated to do all we can to get the loans and the borrower back on track. One aspect of this I find particularly galling is that, given how much AF's companies were into Gr**ns*ll for, and that went tits up in March, is it just coincidence that from April onwards we got a vast slew of loans to F***power all in quick succession. Almost as if they were trying to get as much in as possible from Ablrate lenders before their exposure to Gr**ns*ll became the issue it now is. Had I been aware of their extensive links to Gr**ns*ll then I would not have lent more to F***power over the past five months.
|
|
blender
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,719
Likes: 4,272
|
Post by blender on Sept 8, 2021 17:06:14 GMT
We don't aim to be absent on the forum, but as you can imagine we can't comment publicly. We have spent a couple of hours on the phone to the borrower this morning outlining the plans going forward and the schedule of updates that we will be giving lenders. It will probably be best for all concerned that we stick to the formal updates issued on the platform, which we aim to do on a regular (weekly) basis - or when anything material happens. At this time we are working on the information schedule and arranging discussions with all parties involved in each project to better see where our resources can be deployed to assist the borrower regularize the loans. ..and for clarity, yes any funds that would have been allocated to fees, will be allocated to lender payments during this period. We are working through how payments will be made when received and what the quantum of those payments is likely to be. We appreciate that it is a worrying time and we will do all we can to keep lenders informed of the progress, of course we are very motivated to do all we can to get the loans and the borrower back on track. One aspect of this I find particularly galling is that, given how much AF's companies were into Gr**ns*ll for, and that went tits up in March, is it just coincidence that from April onwards we got a vast slew of loans to F***power all in quick succession. Almost as if they were trying to get as much in as possible from Ablrate lenders before their exposure to Gr**ns*ll became the issue it now is. Had I been aware of their extensive links to Gr**ns*ll then I would not have lent more to F***power over the past five months. Sorry but the problems with Gr**ns*ll were spelled out in a notice from the Chairman of 23 July, and the statement was added to the documents of all the tranches of Fp to that date. In the last 2 tranches the statement was included in the borrowing proposal - page 11 in the latest loan. You would be aware of the issue for any investment made after 23 July. And ablrate would say you also had the choice to trade any earlier loans on the SM, at a small profit, if you were not content with the statement. You have to read the documents, then you would be aware. But yes, it would seem that these tranches have supported cash flow for the group. I have to note that ablrate says nothing about the drawdown of 165 - which should not have happened, imo.
|
|