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Post by mrclondon on Apr 20, 2016 17:14:35 GMT
Also worthy of note is that TC have additional security not available to MT lenders over and above the 2nd charge. This includes a "sole debenture" over the borrower, and chattel mortgages on the vehicles and containers (as well as corporate and personal guarantees). Which means TC would be in the driving seat of the business (literally) if the borrower got into difficulties.
Hmm, not sure about how F&P in the TC IP can describe it as a "sole debenture" and then in the next sentence advise that there is an ongoing debenture to cover the £150k overdraft facility with their bank. (Ah ... its a group structure and the overdraft is in another bit of the business)
EDIT: A reminder for TC lenders of how to navigate through the TC site to reach the relevant loan page - first pick any F&P loan either from your dashboard or the current open listings. Open up the loan details view, click on the "Sponsor Offers" tab, click on the F&P link to reach the full list of their loans, and towards the bottom of the list will be the entry for this borrower.
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ben
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Post by ben on Apr 20, 2016 17:30:28 GMT
Think I will skip this one, I think in the event of default the asset will probably be worth the loan but it looks like TC will have to much input if it gets into trouble and could be a long time to recover
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Greenwood2
Member of DD Central
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Post by Greenwood2 on Apr 21, 2016 6:53:31 GMT
Don't think I'll lend on Thin Cats for this one then! (Not in TC anyway) Out of interest, is TC worth investigating? Do they have many secured loans and what is the general rates? Generally 9%-15% all secured in some way, some better than others. Nine loans currently on offer at 12%-15% (excluding lending club at a projected 8%+) size range of £150,000 - £750,000. Property and businesses. Also an active Secondary Market. The platform software has improved a lot recently and I don't find it any worse than other platforms, they all have things I don't like. Edit: Also on site forums, so not much presence on here.
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investibod
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Post by investibod on Apr 21, 2016 13:00:32 GMT
From the valuation report: Inspection The site has not been inspected. This valuation has been undertaken by a desktop appraised method by xxxx xmith BSc (Hons) MRICS who is an appropriately qualified valuer as defined within the RICS Valuation Professional Standards Manual and who has the relevant experience and knowledge to undertake the valuation. We were informed by the applicant that the subject site currently provides for a cleared parcel of land that is mainly overgrown. We assume that an inspection of the site would not reveal any material defects nor issues detrimental to the proposed development. So, basically the "asset" has been "valued" from behind a desk based in Manchester and we're being asked to put up £475,000 based on an assumption of asset description. ...no thanks. Would the "desktop appraised method" be rolling dice or studying chicken entrails? Alternatively as this is the computerised age, Google street view. I am having difficulty seeing my screen for all the red flags waving. I do hope this is not a sign of things to come with this introducer.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Apr 21, 2016 14:27:36 GMT
From the valuation report: Inspection The site has not been inspected. This valuation has been undertaken by a desktop appraised method by xxxx xmith BSc (Hons) MRICS who is an appropriately qualified valuer as defined within the RICS Valuation Professional Standards Manual and who has the relevant experience and knowledge to undertake the valuation. We were informed by the applicant that the subject site currently provides for a cleared parcel of land that is mainly overgrown. We assume that an inspection of the site would not reveal any material defects nor issues detrimental to the proposed development. So, basically the "asset" has been "valued" from behind a desk based in Manchester and we're being asked to put up £475,000 based on an assumption of asset description. ...no thanks. Would the "desktop appraised method" be rolling dice or studying chicken entrails? Alternatively as this is the computerised age, Google street view. I am having difficulty seeing my screen for all the red flags waving. I do hope this is not a sign of things to come with this introducer. Not sure what insight the valuer would have gained, its a scruffy field with a few trees. You can indeed see that from streetview.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 7:42:22 GMT
Just a few thoughts after a good nights sleep
1) we are lending to the holding company
2) the accounts we have been sent are for the trading company
3) the trading company owes the senior directors £60k ish
4) the trading company sold its assets to the holding company at a "profit" to the trading company
5) the underlying profit for the trading company is £150kish
6) the trading company will avoid a £40k annual lease for its present landlord but will replace it with fees of at least £162k (and probably more like £200k with costs)
7) the holding company will pick up the debt, pay us our fees and pay hold the land and keep up the truck buying
8) two 30 ish sons are now directors of both companies
9) land should get planning permission
10) the £2m business is now feeding three families, if the sons are 35 (eldest) then parents are say 57 (sorry Dad is 64) (retirement in sight within the time of this loan)
11) Assets in holding company are £700k but net assets are basically zero with depreciation at 4%
12) the trading company sold £557k of machinery (trucks) but bought in £100k+ of trucks note that depreciation on machinery is in the trading company is 25%
I think I would need to understand what the two companies are doing to make all this add up before I went in for a big slice. Any thoughts?
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merlin
Minor shareholder in Assetz and many other companies.
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Post by merlin on Apr 23, 2016 17:29:23 GMT
@bobo A very good appraisal and obviously a good eye for what is not in the published accounts. However, now 2.5 hours after the launch of the loans, take-up can best be described as a stampede. I wonder how many punters realised these loans pay 10% and not 12%. Given your appraisal and a few other factors my risk calculator says I would need 15% before I would put a few pennies in this one!
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Post by flobberchops on Apr 23, 2016 18:17:39 GMT
Yep, I'm not crazy about the fact we're only getting 10%. I wouldn't have invested if there was anything better on offer, but I figure that 10% is better than 0% sitting uninvested.
Still, I hope this isn't setting a precedent for MT. 12% is the standard and there's no need to reduce that - unless a loan is a ridiculously safe bet, which by all accounts this recent set of five *aren't*.
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star dust
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Post by star dust on Apr 23, 2016 18:22:35 GMT
However, now 2.5 hours after the launch of the loans, take-up can best be described as a stampede. I wonder how many punters realised these loans pay 10% and not 12%. You're exaggerating, 3 hours after launch there's still 60% available. Do you not invest on SS . How much will be left this time Monday once the cap has gone and all banks are functioning might be more interesting. I'm sitting this one out too, plenty of other opportunities about at the moment for me. I do hope you are wrong about the rate. Some people might be using it a parking facility from the unexpected SS payback though .
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Apr 23, 2016 18:24:37 GMT
@bobo A very good appraisal and obviously a good eye for what is not in the published accounts. However, now 2.5 hours after the launch of the loans, take-up can best be described as a stampede. I wonder how many punters realised these loans pay 10% and not 12%. Given your appraisal and a few other factors my risk calculator says I would need 15% before I would put a few pennies in this one! I wouldnt call 40% after (now) 3.5hrs a stampede, certainly not in the context of normal MT/SS investment rates.
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ben
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Post by ben on Apr 23, 2016 18:32:29 GMT
a lot of people would have expected it to go on Monday after was cancelled yesterday so will see once limits go tomorrow how much it goes, put a small amount in but not a lot, although was expecting the longest term one to go first after all if it fails then all in it equal and if it fails after one or two of the other loans have been paid back more value in the asset compared to loan value
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freddy
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Post by freddy on Apr 24, 2016 0:04:23 GMT
I've given this one a miss. It seems to me that a lower rate is being applied purely on the basis of the longer term and not in relation to risk. Thank you to those who have posted regarding this loan. Certainly helped me in making my decision.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 10:51:35 GMT
I went with a small loan and Wednesday ish should see if Ed decides to pull the deal. If you remember, previous large properties have struggled and by breaking this one into tranches I guess he was trying to help make it attractive.
I think the present take up is a mixture of
1) Timing uncertainty (one of the things MT does really well normally is being on time) this one just fell apart 2) MT lenders tend to like short term loans, (they have self selected by choosing MT over SS), so this longer term loan is less attractive to the MT base 3) The rate is sub 12, but I suspect that Ed knows this market better than most and he could not bring it to us for more than 10%, certainly other prop deals on MT have been 10% 4) It is noticeable that MT have and will keep trying to offer us property, what will be interesting is if it can develop a track record of "getting them away" so far the jury is out
Thanks for kind comments :-)
What I had picked up from another Forum member is that company accounts are generally free on the web, which helps.
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Post by mrclondon on Apr 24, 2016 11:10:12 GMT
@bobo this is a drawn down loan funded from MT working capital (and possibly other underwriters), and is part of a joint fund raise with ThinCats. There can be no pulling of the loan, the borrower received his money Friday afternoon.
IMO the pricing of the loan is wrong, the TC 2nd Tranche should have been around 15% and this first charge around 12%. That said, the security should realise enough to cover the 1st charge loan, so if there was no other loan available in the p2p market at present this one would get some funds from me. But there are better deals available IMO.
The more RICS valuation reports I read the more concerned I become. I think p2p platforms are pinning too much hope on the valuers professional indemnity insurance. If, as has been suggested, failing to visit could have missed an obvious problem with the site, I wonder whether the insurance would actually payout.
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littleoldlady
Member of DD Central
Running down all platforms due to age
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Post by littleoldlady on Apr 24, 2016 12:12:40 GMT
I think p2p platforms are pinning too much hope on the valuers professional indemnity insurance. If, as has been suggested, failing to visit could have missed an obvious problem with the site, I wonder whether the insurance would actually payout.
I doubt it as they disclosed it. Might be different if they had not.
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