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Post by Jack Barlow on Apr 7, 2014 22:48:29 GMT
chris, I think this problem is perhaps more pervasive than you think. For instance, I've checked 40 deferred interest payments made to me from selling loan parts in the L**ds Com******l Pr*****y loan on various dates and they are all in error - I received £13.02, should have received £26.27. Likewise, there's a large percentage error in my deferred interest payments from the Gr**n D**l 89% loan. I'm still working through the rest of my loans, but the problem appears to only occur with loan parts that I have both bought then sold on the SM. The deferred interest payments for all of my sold loan parts that I originally bought on the PM are spot on. Happy to supply you with loan part IDs and example calculations if it's going to help. (I realise this is not the best time to be asking you to look at this!)
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TFTO
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Post by TFTO on Apr 8, 2014 8:57:49 GMT
I’m not sure if this is a related problem or just me being unable to calculate the rates, but for the past week or so every time there have been interest payments (I haven’t so much invested that I receive a payment every day) that payment plus accruals is 10% or so below the previous days accrual.
31/03 4.46 Accruals only
01/04 3.99 Interest + Accruals
02/04 4.36 Accruals only
03/04 3.87 Interest + Accruals
04/04 4.41 Accruals only
05/04 4.14 Interest + Accruals
06/04 4.37 Accruals only
07/04 3.96 Interest + Accruals
I would have thought that interest payments plus accruals should be broadly similar from day to day unless buying or selling loan parts.
As I said, it could be me as I tend to leave any calculations to AC.
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Post by Ton ⓉⓞⓃ on Apr 8, 2014 10:05:12 GMT
I’m not sure if this is a related problem or just me being unable to calculate the rates, but for the past week or so every time there have been interest payments (I haven’t so much invested that I receive a payment every day) that payment plus accruals is 10% or so below the previous days accrual. 31/03 4.46 Accruals only 01/04 3.99 Interest + Accruals 02/04 4.36 Accruals only 03/04 3.87 Interest + Accruals 04/04 4.41 Accruals only 05/04 4.14 Interest + Accruals 06/04 4.37 Accruals only 07/04 3.96 Interest + Accruals I would have thought that interest payments plus accruals should be broadly similar from day to day unless buying or selling loan parts. As I said, it could be me as I tend to leave any calculations to AC. I take it that this is the totals for all your investments on AC on those days.
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TFTO
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Post by TFTO on Apr 8, 2014 11:08:34 GMT
I’m not sure if this is a related problem or just me being unable to calculate the rates, but for the past week or so every time there have been interest payments (I haven’t so much invested that I receive a payment every day) that payment plus accruals is 10% or so below the previous days accrual. 31/03 4.46 Accruals only 01/04 3.99 Interest + Accruals 02/04 4.36 Accruals only 03/04 3.87 Interest + Accruals 04/04 4.41 Accruals only 05/04 4.14 Interest + Accruals 06/04 4.37 Accruals only 07/04 3.96 Interest + Accruals I would have thought that interest payments plus accruals should be broadly similar from day to day unless buying or selling loan parts. As I said, it could be me as I tend to leave any calculations to AC. I take it that this is the totals for all your investments on AC on those days. No, it is to see how much profit I am making. I have kept a running total of interest plus accruals from day one. I sum up the accruals from my loan list and then add on any new interest payment from the transaction statement and then subtract the previous day’s running total. I think the change from day to day should be more or less the same, unless I buy or sell.
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Post by badger on Apr 11, 2014 8:42:05 GMT
I’m not sure if this is a related problem or just me being unable to calculate the rates, but for the past week or so every time there have been interest payments (I haven’t so much invested that I receive a payment every day) that payment plus accruals is 10% or so below the previous days accrual. 31/03 4.46 Accruals only 01/04 3.99 Interest + Accruals 02/04 4.36 Accruals only 03/04 3.87 Interest + Accruals 04/04 4.41 Accruals only 05/04 4.14 Interest + Accruals 06/04 4.37 Accruals only 07/04 3.96 Interest + Accruals I would have thought that interest payments plus accruals should be broadly similar from day to day unless buying or selling loan parts. As I said, it could be me as I tend to leave any calculations to AC. Just a guess but this sounds like a different problem. My guess is that the calculation of accruals is only approximate. I've been following Ha****y accruals for the past few days and it accrues at 15p per day (on £500) - should be 16.13 based on a 31-day month. I'm assuming it will correct itself when the real interest is paid in a few days time. Maybe there was a problem with larkincj's payments because March has 31 days and April has 30? So the accrual could reach 100% a day early? Anyway, I think the problem with accruals going astray when a loan unit is sold is a different and potentially bigger problem. I hope that chris will get onto it when he's got a few minutes between nappy changes. At the moment I'm not selling anything until I know it's been fixed. PS - chris - it would be useful if we could have in "my account" a list of loan units which we no longer hold, but which have got some accrued interest on them. Including amount accrued and date of next payment.
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Post by pepperpot on Apr 11, 2014 9:37:51 GMT
I’m not sure if this is a related problem or just me being unable to calculate the rates, but for the past week or so every time there have been interest payments (I haven’t so much invested that I receive a payment every day) that payment plus accruals is 10% or so below the previous days accrual. <snip> I would have thought that interest payments plus accruals should be broadly similar from day to day unless buying or selling loan parts. As I said, it could be me as I tend to leave any calculations to AC. Just a guess but this sounds like a different problem. My guess is that the calculation of accruals is only approximate. I've been following Ha****y accruals for the past few days and it accrues at 15p per day (on £500) - should be 16.13 based on a 31-day month. I'm assuming it will correct itself when the real interest is paid in a few days time. Maybe there was a problem with larkincj's payments because March has 31 days and April has 30? So the accrual could reach 100% a day early? Anyway, I think the problem with accruals going astray when a loan unit is sold is a different and potentially bigger problem. I hope that chris will get onto it when he's got a few minutes between nappy changes. At the moment I'm not selling anything until I know it's been fixed. PS - chris - it would be useful if we could have in "my account" a list of loan units which we no longer hold, but which have got some accrued interest on them. Including amount accrued and date of next payment. Loan part sizes can account for the difference you see there on your £500 due to rounding. A £100 loan part will accrue at 3p per day (@12%) but hidden in the background it will be accruing at c3.28p, so every 3 or 4 days it will give you 4p per £100 loan part making the total for that day 20p. I'll add another voice to your last point - leaving loans that have been sold as viewable in 'Your Loan Units' until the next payment has been made. If there is a partial sale of your holding you can still see the parts that you hold along with the parts that are sold and interest that is due on each. Which is very helpful!
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Post by badger on Apr 12, 2014 21:46:44 GMT
every 3 or 4 days it will give you 4p per £100 loan part making the total for that day 20p. Spot on - went up 20p today
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Post by mrclondon on Apr 13, 2014 17:11:28 GMT
chris another example of a loan part that is showing the wrong accrued interest - Bolton Bridging, bought 08/04/2014 23:31:18 by AI id 243866 (old id 235587) is showing accrued interest as if I had owned it on the last repayment day (21st March) , but another part in the same loan bought yesterday (12/04/2014 18:04:13), again by AI is showing correctly just 1 day of accrued interest id 245833 (old id 100036). Is there any significance that in the first case the old id number implies this part was itself bought very recently and resold ? Is this related to the fix you had to make on 21st Feb when a load of Anglesey loan parts I'd sold the week before (but bought after 21st Jan) didn't automatically pay the deferred interest on the due date ? Has this fix got lost, or has this fix had unintended consequences ? This seems to tie up with the observations made by Jack Barlow in this post.
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mikeb
Posts: 1,053
Likes: 463
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Post by mikeb on Apr 22, 2014 17:21:54 GMT
It's all gone very quiet on the bug front, so now Easter's out of the way :- Has the bug been identified yet? Is it safe to sell loan parts and actually receive the accrued interest correctly? I haven't picked up anything on the AM with non-zero accrued interest, but then again, there's been fairly little happening (manually, or AutoInvest) so this doesn't prove much  Elsewhere, chris says "Over £800k of aftermarket transactions in the last week, £24k so far this morning" -- so obviously a lot is moving through AM, even if the interest is being miscalculated!  |
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Post by chris on Apr 28, 2014 19:56:17 GMT
It was more paternity leave got in the way rather than easter as this one is squarely on my shoulders. I think I've tracked down and corrected the issue though - it affected loan units that have been sold more than once in different repayment periods where the accrued interest in the second period was greater than the first. The 27 loan units that were most clearly affected have been corrected, as have a number of other loan units where the effect was more subtle.
I have a list of lenders who were affected by this bug but who have already received their loan interest due to a repayment on a loan passing. The system would have paid them too little interest so we owe them some money (it totals just under £200 that has been withheld incorrectly). I've sent this list over to our head of operations to double check before we reimburse people.
Hopefully this should be everything corrected but I'll keep digging as the recursive nature of this code makes it a little painful to work with. As it seems to be correct now I'll leave it alone for now, but I do have plans to replace this system of deferring interest with a more elegant and maintainable solution in the coming months.
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Post by Ton ⓉⓞⓃ on Apr 28, 2014 20:23:38 GMT
It was more paternity leave got in the way rather than easter as this one is squarely on my shoulders. I think I've tracked down and corrected the issue though - it affected loan units that have been sold more than once in different repayment periods where the accrued interest in the second period was greater than the first. The 27 loan units that were most clearly affected have been corrected, as have a number of other loan units where the effect was more subtle. I have a list of lenders who were affected by this bug but who have already received their loan interest due to a repayment on a loan passing. The system would have paid them too little interest so we owe them some money (it totals just under £200 that has been withheld incorrectly). I've sent this list over to our head of operations to double check before we reimburse people. Hopefully this should be everything corrected but I'll keep digging as the recursive nature of this code makes it a little painful to work with. As it seems to be correct now I'll leave it alone for now, but I do have plans to replace this system of deferring interest with a more elegant and maintainable solution in the coming months. Do you ever have time off? I guess the answer to that is no unless you're helping someone give birth. So what is happening with overpayments, the guys & girls who got payments inexcess? Please answer this tomorrow! Have some sleep or change a nappy, that much more important. And Thanks for plugging away at this nasty issue!
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Post by chris on Apr 28, 2014 20:26:00 GMT
As far as I can tell there weren't any overpayments, at least from the bug that has been found and corrected. The system was correctly distributing deferred interest to the seller of loan units but was, in specific circumstances, then deducting more than that amount from the purchaser's interest payment.
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Post by Jack Barlow on Apr 28, 2014 21:29:02 GMT
chrisThanks for looking into this problem. I've completed my check of interest payments received and found that I've had underpayments on 52 sold loan parts across 3 loans (Auctions 45, 57 and 63), and overpayments on 17 purchased loan parts across 2 loans (Auctions 36 and 60). Your diagnosis of which deferred interest calculations are affected seems to tally with what I'm seeing. However, if you haven't identified any overpayments to buyers of loan parts then I suggest you may have only identified part of the problem. Will the correcting transactions for the underpayments be itemised for individual loan parts so that we can easily check the recalculated interest? Also, please would you post on this forum when all of the corrections that you've identified have been implemented? Thanks Jack
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Post by Come_on_Grandad on Apr 28, 2014 23:28:40 GMT
As far as I can tell there weren't any overpayments, at least from the bug that has been found and corrected. The system was correctly distributing deferred interest to the seller of loan units but was, in specific circumstances, then deducting more than that amount from the purchaser's interest payment. Must be more than 1 bug then. Sellers of loan parts are certainly missing out on deferred interest payments, on some occasions, which buyers appear to be collecting instead. I've selected some previous posts which give specific detail (loan part id) that you could investigate: In this post p2pindependentforum.com/post/9163/thread Ton ⓉⓞⓃ and I discuss that our loan parts suggest that I will lose 17pence by selling loan part 201498. As we suspected, I never did get the deferred interest and Ton ⓉⓞⓃ has since confirmed that he did end up with it. badger describes another clear example here p2pindependentforum.com/post/9214/thread loan part 234354 In this post p2pindependentforum.com/post/9453/thread jack Barlow offers a systematic analysis, followed up by mrclondon with another example here p2pindependentforum.com/post/9940/thread and by MONEY here p2pindependentforum.com/post/9940/thread
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markr
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Post by markr on Apr 29, 2014 7:59:02 GMT
Do you ever have time off? I guess the answer to that is no unless you're helping someone give birth. I reckon he must have had a little bit of time off around 9 months ago 
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