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Post by brightspark on Sept 6, 2019 10:44:08 GMT
An update it may be but if it is anything like all the previous ones going back for 2 years it must be taken with a hefty pinch of salt. In spite of previous updates that the development is to all intents and purposes finished it would appear that the receivers are getting into their stride to advise that there are a wealth of things need fixing. The alternative is that the building will have to be sold for peanuts. FS will of course say that they have been led up the garden path by the borrower but an alternative view is that they allowed themselves to be misled and were complacent to such a state of affairs. The FS brand will remain tainted for many a day by loans such as this one.
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on Jan 16, 2020 19:14:52 GMT
recent update - at least the administrators seem to be getting on with things we asked and asked FS about this one years ago... hopefully this will soon be put to auction and not withdrawn 2 or 3 times! Not looking good for the lower ranking loans but what's new there...
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goofy115
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Post by goofy115 on Jan 24, 2020 22:51:19 GMT
Now up for sale - offers in the region of £895k.
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Post by spareapennyor2 on Jul 6, 2020 8:46:51 GMT
update on site offer 832k with proof of funding
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on Jul 6, 2020 11:07:38 GMT
I am in the first tranche so given my last interest payment from FS was in Aug 2018 and I almost unable to contain my excitement!
To be honest given the appallingly bad way this project was or rather wasn't overseen by FS, who have taken incompetence to a new level I, think this is a good result overall and certainly more than I would have paid for this development. I also think this is more than it would have got an auction which I was in favour of. I think this has been withdrawn from auction (twice?) and had 2 prior buyers so I hope this time it isn't Goodnight Vienna. Wonder who the new buyer is? Be interesting to see just how much the administrators charges etc are for this one but if I am looking at the correct data I surmise
1st and 2nd charge should be OK 3rd charge mega haircut 4th charge 100% loss
hopefully the above is proven wrong...
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Jul 6, 2020 12:27:08 GMT
I am in the first tranche so given my last interest payment from FS was in Aug 2018 and I almost unable to contain my excitement! To be honest given the appallingly bad way this project was or rather wasn't overseen by FS, who have taken incompetence to a new level I, think this is a good result overall and certainly more than I would have paid for this development. I also think this is more than it would have got an auction which I was in favour of. I think this has been withdrawn from auction (twice?) and had 2 prior buyers so I hope this time it isn't Goodnight Vienna. Wonder who the new buyer is? Be interesting to see just how much the administrators charges etc are for this one but if I am looking at the correct data I surmise 1st and 2nd charge should be OK 3rd charge mega haircut 4th charge 100% loss hopefully the above is proven wrong... Well, it is wrong I believe, but not in a good way. AIUI, given that £832k is only the smallest shade above the total first ranking facility capital outstanding (£815k), then after all of the various fees, the only people receiving anything back will be the first facility holders, who will receive most but not all of their capital back. They won't be seeing any interest though, and anyone in lower ranking loans won't be seeing a penny. If indeed it does actually finally sell this time, which of course cannot be taken for granted. edit: the theoretical accrued interest on my slice of the 1st facility amounts to over 40% of the outstanding principal, so AIUI it would have to have sold for over £1.2m for even the first facility holders to be repaid in full, never mind anyone else.
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Post by Jack Barlow on Jul 6, 2020 12:33:40 GMT
<snip> Be interesting to see just how much the administrators charges etc are for this one but if I am looking at the correct data I surmise 1st and 2nd charge should be OK 3rd charge mega haircut 4th charge 100% loss hopefully the above is proven wrong... I suspect you may be mistaking the 4th tranche of the first charge for a 4th charge. My records show only 3 charges, as tabulated here by Steerpike : p2pindependentforum.com/post/302802/thread. I'm anticipating a 75-80% recovery on the first charge capital after all costs and fees if the proposed sale completes. Edit: crossed with r00lish67 .
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on Jul 6, 2020 13:10:44 GMT
sorry I missed the loans with a different title viz Formby development etc - confusing or what
have redone my sums - yes a hit for the first charge holders (at least I will get something back from my zombie loan book) and disaster for everybody else - when done FS yet another gold-plated C*ck-up!
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Post by biscuit123 on Jul 6, 2020 18:55:59 GMT
I'm confused I have small sums in Tranches 3 & 4 the General Information page for Tranche 4 states:
"All tranches will rank equally in this loan."
Am I missing something?
Biscuit
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on Jul 6, 2020 19:05:11 GMT
I'm confused I have small sums in Tranches 3 & 4 the General Information page for Tranche 4 states: "All tranches will rank equally in this loan."
Am I missing something? Biscuit Pinching a handily collated table from Steerpike : Reference Amount 1586956834 £342,0009722235354 £150,0008063562495 £185,000 2741574255 £138,000
2092027969 £100,000 7805271776 £80,000 2060253521 £77,000
If you are in all / some / any of these, you'll likely get most of your capital back, but no interest If you are in all / some / any of these, you'll get nothing back from those loans I suspect you are in *495 and *255 so you should receive something. Edit: just in case I've not answered the question you have asked.... That Tranche 4 listing quote refers to itself (*255) and the other three blue loans. That was the original 'loan facility' - the total amount that FS (and therefore lenders in those loans) expected to lend the borrower. As is often the case on development loans (especially P2P dev loans), things don't go according to plan, so the borrower came back to FS (and the lenders) and asked for a bit more, please. FS (and lenders) said 'sure, why not' and agreed to lend a further £180k (via * 969 and * 776) and then again for another £77k (via * 521), but to keep it fair to the lenders on those loans, FS structured the new loans so that they were junior to that first set of loans - ie: lenders in those loans would get their capital and interest back before lenders in these loans received so much as a penny. That's a significant dollop of extra risk for lenders in those junior ranking loans because all the while the senior loans were in default, the interest owed was ever-increasing making the probability of those junior lenders receiving anything back whatsoever, less and less by the day. Additionally, * 521 was junior to both * 969 and * 776 - so unless everything went silky smooth from that point on, you might as well put a match to your capital; at least it would have kept you warm for a bit. And the reward for taking on that additional risk? An extra 1% or 2% interest per annum. Bonkers.
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Post by biscuit123 on Jul 7, 2020 7:33:57 GMT
I've £25 in each 521 and 255 so I may get something back, but like the paintings it's been a disaster
But thanks for the excellent reply
Biscuit
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on Jul 7, 2020 11:54:21 GMT
I've £25 in each 521 and 255 so I may get something back, but like the paintings it's been a disaster
But thanks for the excellent reply
Biscuit
No problem. You should get something back on 255 - possibly 80-85%? - but that will barely help cushion the 100% loss on 521. A dev loan and those paintings is an interesting comparison, though. Ignoring the platform for a second, this dev loan is a good example of what can go wrong with loans of this type: delays > overuns > overspends > default > part completed project > distressed sale = capital loss. Of course, the events and circumstances leading up to a default can be greatly influenced by the quality of the borrower, and the origination quality, risk mitigation and issue management is largely in the hands of the platform. The point is, that when it comes to dev loans, imo no platform - and therefore no lender - is immune to the probability of capital losses. My view is that the 'problem' with dev loans on P2P - and specifically with regard to retail lenders - is the way platforms 'sell' risk; or rather, 'sell' the lack of it. Sure, 'YOUR CAPITAL IS AT RISK' is there for all to see, no doubting that, but comforting words around 'low Loan to Value' (and even lower loan to Gross Development valuations) along with the perceived safety of a Provision Fund to further protect investors can - and do, based on the some of the posts made on the forums - mask the very real risks surrounding dev loans. The promoting of a Secondary Market as an escape route only serves to aid-and-abet in the down-playing of risk, imo. As I type this I'm reminded of a quiz question that came up over the weekend. I'll leave you to work out the actual quote and film it was from, but to bastardise it horribly (and somewhat inaccurately): " The greatest trick P2P ever pulled was to convince lenders that risk didn't exist." Shifting focus to those painting loans and it's pretty much chalk and cheese. A pawn / chattels loan should be so much more straight forward than a dev loan: Get the item. Confirm ownership. Confirm authenticity. Get it valued. Agree Terms. Secure the item. When a platform repeatedly fails in its' duty on so many of the above, it goes way beyond simple human error and finds itself in the realms of professional nonfeasance, possibly worse. Sadly, when it is meted out - which is rarely - the punishment for such activity is the equivalent of a slap on the wrist. Those at FS' helm when these loans were originated should have the book thrown at them. Many lenders would like that to be a complete set of the Encyclopedia Britannica. In reality is likely to be a pocket diary - if anything.
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Post by df on Jul 7, 2020 11:59:39 GMT
I've £25 in each 521 and 255 so I may get something back, but like the paintings it's been a disaster
But thanks for the excellent reply
Biscuit
Similar here. I have 60% of blue and 40% of red, so will probably loose only about 50% of capital in this loan. Not bad
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on Jul 7, 2020 14:03:09 GMT
I agree with I-robot about selling risk - or rather gambling with it. There is no way on this planet I could have raised funds for my developments before I stuck to cash With FS it seemed to be a case of turning up with a vague plan mentioning profit and they then threw ever more money at you with no questions and no additional questions and no audit-trail etc
When I borrowed from my bank they had 100% control of all my money, knew exactly where it went, and only released more when they were happy with building progress and they made it quite clear if I got behind they would have repossessed my home as well as the development (actually I got the impression they would have enjoyed that)
Clearly some developers saw FS for what they were and set-up companies to protect themselves - siphoned money away from the FS loan and then let the development be repossesed - and some of these muppets seems very wealthy to me with racehorses etc - well done FS - classic!
Also with the art works - given there are so many fakes around etc not only should they have confirmed owenership and physically stored the art ("we think it might be in Dubai!") they should have taken cross-collateralisation - not least from Daddy who is mega wealthy.
Yes I really hope we can sue FS so they don't get a penny of this 5% fee...
don't forget "organic growth - it's a process"
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Godanubis
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Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
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Post by Godanubis on Jul 7, 2020 22:32:11 GMT
sorry I missed the loans with a different title viz Formby development etc - confusing or what have redone my sums - yes a hit for the first charge holders (at least I will get something back from my zombie loan book) and disaster for everybody else - when done FS yet another gold-plated C*ck-up! Think a more base metal say "Lead C*ck-up
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