chris1200
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Post by chris1200 on May 7, 2019 16:03:39 GMT
Any practical suggestions for fixing the system, apart from forcing all administrators to work for a fee set by government? Not for us to make suggestions is it boundah , but what we do know is that the current "system" is clearly VERY broken and wide open to abuse. One thing that could and should be done is the implementation of a completely independent team to audit the "Fees" these leeches charge, I think there'd be a few BIG surprises there. With no real checking of time and fees human nature takes over doesn't it? Such an auditing team could be funded exactly the same way as The FCA and other countless Government Quangos get funded I'd have thought? The reason of course why Administration and/or Receivership are such profitable troughs is that there is heavy lobbying to maintain the status quo, many MPs and Others of Influence are involved with the Accountancy and Insolvency Firms - don't rock the gravy train! (To mix my metaphors.) Your supposed idea basically already exists. The creditors' committee has to approve fees and, if they don't, it goes to court. Unless you think the courts are in on this conspiracy of yours too? I hope you realise, by the way, that you're making fairly serious allegations of fraud. I would just be careful what you say, if I were you. Incidentally, this sort of fee structure is used by basically all professional service firms. Do you have a problem with all of them too? My guess is that what you actually don't like is that someone else is making money out of assets that are owed to you and that is resulting in emotion clouding your judgement. You'd probably have the same reaction no matter how good or bad a job BDO were doing. I'm sure you're far from alone in that, but it would be best to recognise it before you start typing.
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boundah
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Post by boundah on May 7, 2019 16:20:18 GMT
Any practical suggestions for fixing the system, apart from forcing all administrators to work for a fee set by government? Not for us to make suggestions is it boundah , but what we do know is that the current "system" is clearly VERY broken and wide open to abuse. One thing that could and should be done is the implementation of a completely independent team to audit the "Fees" these leeches charge, I think there'd be a few BIG surprises there. With no real checking of time and fees human nature takes over doesn't it? Such an auditing team could be funded exactly the same way as The FCA and other countless Government Quangos get funded I'd have thought? The reason of course why Administration and/or Receivership are such profitable troughs is that there is heavy lobbying to maintain the status quo, many MPs and Others of Influence are involved with the Accountancy and Insolvency Firms - don't rock the gravy train! (To mix my metaphors.) [Crossed with chris1200] Sound like suggestions to me... Anyway, it's always easier to knock a system than propose viable alternatives (Brexit, anyone?). While I agree fees are excessive, I see no easy way to fix things so we investors don't lose out. I'm not sure why the taxpayer should fund the 'auditing team' you suggest - we chose to invest, so shouldn't we bear the cost of the risks we should have known we were taking? If the FS industry funds it (a la FCA) there would be conflicts of interest too.
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on May 7, 2019 16:43:53 GMT
Not for us to make suggestions is it boundah , but what we do know is that the current "system" is clearly VERY broken and wide open to abuse. One thing that could and should be done is the implementation of a completely independent team to audit the "Fees" these leeches charge, I think there'd be a few BIG surprises there. With no real checking of time and fees human nature takes over doesn't it? Such an auditing team could be funded exactly the same way as The FCA and other countless Government Quangos get funded I'd have thought? The reason of course why Administration and/or Receivership are such profitable troughs is that there is heavy lobbying to maintain the status quo, many MPs and Others of Influence are involved with the Accountancy and Insolvency Firms - don't rock the gravy train! (To mix my metaphors.) Your supposed idea basically already exists. The creditors' committee has to approve fees and, if they don't, it goes to court. Unless you think the courts are in on this conspiracy of yours too? I hope you realise, by the way, that you're making fairly serious allegations of fraud. I would just be careful what you say, if I were you. Incidentally, this sort of fee structure is used by basically all professional service firms. Do you have a problem with all of them too? My guess is that what you actually don't like is that someone else is making money out of assets that are owed to you and that is resulting in emotion clouding your judgement. You'd probably have the same reaction no matter how good or bad a job BDO were doing. I'm sure you're far from alone in that, but it would be best to recognise it before you start typing. Emotion has nothing at all to do with it, we all know what goes on, and any CC is nowhere near equipped to even remotely understand what's been done and how any accumulated "Fees" are calculated - that's why professional, independent auditing is required. I've made allegations of fraud? I don't think so, and I need to be careful? It is you who seems to be alluding to a specific case/circumstances chris1200, I am not. And you're not me btw. :-) The naiveity on here never ceases to surprise me.
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chris1200
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Post by chris1200 on May 7, 2019 16:53:59 GMT
Your supposed idea basically already exists. The creditors' committee has to approve fees and, if they don't, it goes to court. Unless you think the courts are in on this conspiracy of yours too? I hope you realise, by the way, that you're making fairly serious allegations of fraud. I would just be careful what you say, if I were you. Incidentally, this sort of fee structure is used by basically all professional service firms. Do you have a problem with all of them too? My guess is that what you actually don't like is that someone else is making money out of assets that are owed to you and that is resulting in emotion clouding your judgement. You'd probably have the same reaction no matter how good or bad a job BDO were doing. I'm sure you're far from alone in that, but it would be best to recognise it before you start typing. Emotion has nothing at all to do with it, we all know what goes on, and any CC is nowhere near equipped to even remotely understand what's been done and how any accumulated "Fees" are calculated - that's why professional, independent auditing is required. I've made allegations of fraud? I don't think so, and I need to be careful? It is you who seems to be alluding to a specific case/circumstances chris1200 , I am not. And you're not me btw. :-) The naiveity on here never ceases to surprise me. So the "CC is nowhere near equipped to even remotely understand what's been done and how any accumulated "Fees" are calculated" - but you are very well equipped to understand exactly what's going on, apparently? I see you also dodged my mention of court approval. If you don't want to heed my warnings then fine - make whatever accusations you want. But please don't accuse me of naivety. I've actually worked in the City in these sorts of firms, and I had to study a lot of how this stuff works in my professional training. I am the first to admit that I'm not an expert - this didn't end up being my practice area - but I'm willing to bet I have a greater understanding than most. Indeed, saying this will make me unpopular, but what I'm realising more and more as I see posts on this forum is quite how many investors in p2p are nowhere near sophisticated* enough to have been making these sorts of risky investments. Basic understanding of the relevant financial and legal issues is pretty shocking. No wonder the FCA is looking to tighten things up. (*by 'sophisticated', I mean in the financial regulatory sense - I'm not calling people 'common' or something..!)
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on May 7, 2019 17:06:54 GMT
Emotion has nothing at all to do with it, we all know what goes on, and any CC is nowhere near equipped to even remotely understand what's been done and how any accumulated "Fees" are calculated - that's why professional, independent auditing is required. I've made allegations of fraud? I don't think so, and I need to be careful? It is you who seems to be alluding to a specific case/circumstances chris1200 , I am not. And you're not me btw. :-) The naiveity on here never ceases to surprise me. So the "CC is nowhere near equipped to even remotely understand what's been done and how any accumulated "Fees" are calculated" - but you are very well equipped to understand exactly what's going on, apparently? I see you also dodged my mention of court approval.If you don't want to heed my warnings then fine - make whatever accusations you want. But please don't accuse me of naivety. I've actually worked in the City in these sorts of firms, and I had to study a lot of how this stuff works in my professional training. I am the first to admit that I'm not an expert - this didn't end up being my practice area - but I'm willing to bet I have a greater understanding than most. Indeed, this will make me unpopular, but what I'm realising more and more as I see posts on this forum is quite how many investors in p2p are nowhere near sophisticated* enough to have been making these sorts of risky investments. Basic understanding of the relevant financial and legal issues is pretty shocking. No wonder the FCA is looking to tighten things up. (*by 'sophisticated', I mean in the financial regulatory sense - I'm not calling people 'common' or something..!) The Judge and/or Courts are not fully qualified Accountants, they have no understanding whatsoever of exactly how Fees are calculated and the underlying quality and quantity of work involved. You are also changing the subject, which is not about and has nothing to do with "sophistication", "risky investments", "basic understanding" or anything else, it is about the broken system in use about how matters are dealt with after a collapse of any firm . :-) [ PS / EDIT - I suggest that "Court Approval" means Football Association. ]
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chris1200
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Post by chris1200 on May 7, 2019 17:17:31 GMT
The Judge and/or Courts are not fully qualified Accountants, they have no understanding whatsoever of exactly how Fees are calculated and the underlying quality and quantity of work involved. I think you might be being a little overambitious as to what is possible here. Any assessment of fees is going to be very crude. BDO, like all firms, will have its staff recording their time logs as they work. You can make accusations that people will 'pad out' their time, but it's close to impossible to prove that no matter how forensic you are. So you'd have to be making huge generalisations/guesses as to how long certain types of work might take. That's always going to be difficult, but it's going to be close to impossible in a unique situation such as this. My original point, though, was that these are potential criticisms of whole industries and processes, and here is not the place to attack BDO for something that isn't really their responsibility. You are also changing the subject, which is not about and has nothing to do with "sophistication", "risky investments", "basic understanding" or anything else, it is about the broken system in use about how matters are dealt with after a collapse of any firm . :-) Well, you said "The naiveity on here never ceases to surprise me", so I was making the point as to where I see the real naivety. And to echo my point above, if your criticisms are indeed that of "how matters are dealt with after a collapse of any firm" then please do go ahead and debate the merits of reforms to insolvency law somewhere else. This isn't the place for it and your (and others') sniping helps no-one other than to selfishly satisfy your own desire to vent.
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on May 7, 2019 17:47:21 GMT
The Judge and/or Courts are not fully qualified Accountants, they have no understanding whatsoever of exactly how Fees are calculated and the underlying quality and quantity of work involved. I think you might be being a little overambitious as to what is possible here. Any assessment of fees is going to be very crude. BDO, like all firms, will have its staff recording their time logs as they work. You can make accusations that people will 'pad out' their time, but it's close to impossible to prove that no matter how forensic you are. So you'd have to be making huge generalisations/guesses as to how long certain types of work might take. That's always going to be difficult, but it's going to be close to impossible in a unique situation such as this. My original point, though, was that these are potential criticisms of whole industries and processes, and here is not the place to attack BDO for something that isn't really their responsibility. You are also changing the subject, which is not about and has nothing to do with "sophistication", "risky investments", "basic understanding" or anything else, it is about the broken system in use about how matters are dealt with after a collapse of any firm . :-) Well, you said "The naiveity on here never ceases to surprise me", so I was making the point as to where I see the real naivety. And to echo my point above, if your criticisms are indeed that of "how matters are dealt with after a collapse of any firm" then please do go ahead and debate the merits of reforms to insolvency law somewhere else. This isn't the place for it and your (and others') sniping helps no-one other than to selfishly satisfy your own desire to vent. It's a Forum Old Fruit, it IS the place to debate.
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chris1200
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Post by chris1200 on May 7, 2019 17:51:14 GMT
I think you might be being a little overambitious as to what is possible here. Any assessment of fees is going to be very crude. BDO, like all firms, will have its staff recording their time logs as they work. You can make accusations that people will 'pad out' their time, but it's close to impossible to prove that no matter how forensic you are. So you'd have to be making huge generalisations/guesses as to how long certain types of work might take. That's always going to be difficult, but it's going to be close to impossible in a unique situation such as this. My original point, though, was that these are potential criticisms of whole industries and processes, and here is not the place to attack BDO for something that isn't really their responsibility. Well, you said "The naiveity on here never ceases to surprise me", so I was making the point as to where I see the real naivety. And to echo my point above, if your criticisms are indeed that of "how matters are dealt with after a collapse of any firm" then please do go ahead and debate the merits of reforms to insolvency law somewhere else. This isn't the place for it and your (and others') sniping helps no-one other than to selfishly satisfy your own desire to vent. It's a Forum Old Fruit, it IS the place to debate. Ugh. I really give up. See ya everyone.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 9, 2019 22:38:01 GMT
...- that's why professional, independent auditing is required. Indeed. I gather that there are a few large firms who specialise in performing audits...
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m2btj
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Post by m2btj on May 10, 2019 8:55:51 GMT
There aren't many professions where you get a company's chequebook & start writing your own cheques!
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 10, 2019 11:17:50 GMT
There aren't many professions where you get a company's chequebook & start writing your own cheques! There's a lot of professions where you bid for work, and invoice based on the estimates/quotes you gave before getting the job, though.
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Post by Please turn me over on Jun 7, 2019 7:08:14 GMT
It's for sale by A***** Y**** on instructions from LPA receivers. Asking price: offers invited. Brochure available.
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Post by elephantrosie on Jun 8, 2019 19:03:45 GMT
look better than i thought it would be. are they running out of funds to complete it?
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Jun 8, 2019 19:11:37 GMT
look better than i thought it would be. are they running out of funds to complete it? Are you being serious?
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kaya
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Post by kaya on Jul 10, 2019 8:17:03 GMT
I selfishly want this big loan to do well, as that would mean more contributions to the BDO expenses pot. But I see a complete disaster.
Oh well, so the bling will have to pay for more of the expenses. Except when it turns out that it was all made of resin.
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