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Post by nellerdk on Aug 21, 2017 9:23:12 GMT
I am not sure how much I trust the interest rate indicator. What is your real interest rate on Mintos? (calculated from actually received interest per month....)
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Post by nesako on Aug 22, 2017 8:17:04 GMT
It is quite complex thing due to delays in repayments / buybacks etc...
I have just calculated mine for last month and APR was 10.15%, compounded would be 10.65% APR, value reported on Mintos is 11.15%
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kulerucket
Member of DD Central
Posts: 336 
Likes: 93
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Post by kulerucket on Aug 22, 2017 17:25:42 GMT
Reported: 13.08%
Calculated: 11.46% (climbing)
However I have a big pile of Mozipo loans about to buy back and my most recent transfer in was only 2 months ago. Both of which place some drag on my calculated interest.
My Mozipo experiment has been weird to say the least. Bought 1K€@13.1%, 350€ bought back within days well before the 60 day trigger. 600€ about to buy back imminently without a single payment made. Total loans actually making payments = 50€. How this can be sustainable is anybody's guess.
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Post by epolitic on Aug 24, 2017 11:59:35 GMT
I am not sure how much I trust the interest rate indicator. What is your real interest rate on Mintos? (calculated from actually received interest per month....) Just wanted to post the same. I have been investing with mintos for almost year, and in the meanwhile my Twino acc has earned 2x more with less funds but the same interest rate..
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Post by kissmyjazz on Aug 25, 2017 11:44:01 GMT
I think that is mathematically impossible. The consensus is that Mintos calculates their loan % correctly, so the return from Mintos loans should be comparable to Twino's.
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Post by kilozulu on Aug 25, 2017 12:52:22 GMT
I think that is mathematically impossible. The consensus is that Mintos calculates their loan % correctly, so the return from Mintos loans should be comparable to Twino's. I second this.
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Post by mopcku on Aug 25, 2017 18:42:32 GMT
Probably we have to check their calculation really carefully because i also have the feeling even at approximately the same rates on twino and mintos i received overall lower amount on mintos!
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Post by southseacompany on Aug 26, 2017 2:42:54 GMT
There are a few factors that cause the reported rate to differ from what you might expect.
An obvious one is cash drag. Mintos reports interest relative to the amount actually invested in loans, excluding cash in your account. If you have a significant amount of cash sitting around, the reported interest rate will be higher than the actual interest rate you get as a percentage of your total funds.
Another one is the secondary market. If you buy a loan at discount, Mintos treats the discount as an immediate profit to your account on the day of purchase, instead of amortizing it over the remaining lifetime of the loan like generally accepted accounting principles would suggest. If you manage to buy discounted loans often, Mintos will overstate your rate, and this effect can be material. If a public company engaged in this it would be called either aggressive accounting or accounting fraud, depending on jurisdiction.
Mintos uses XIRR "adjusted to exclude compounding effects", whatever that means. Normally I'd think people use (X)IRR to correctly account for compounding, but what do I know.
I don't know how Twino computes their rate (they say XIRR, but no details are given), but agree with most posters that it does seem more conservative than Mintos.
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Post by rahafoorum on Aug 26, 2017 7:28:39 GMT
Another one is the secondary market. If you buy a loan at discount, Mintos treats the discount as an immediate profit to your account on the day of purchase, instead of amortizing it over the remaining lifetime of the loan like generally accepted accounting principles would suggest. If you manage to buy discounted loans often, Mintos will overstate your rate, and this effect can be material. If a public company engaged in this it would be called either aggressive accounting or accounting fraud, depending on jurisdiction. Mintos uses XIRR "adjusted to exclude compounding effects", whatever that means. Normally I'd think people use (X)IRR to correctly account for compounding, but what do I know. I don't know how Twino computes their rate (they say XIRR, but no details are given), but agree with most posters that it does seem more conservative than Mintos. The discount part automatically happens with most XIRR calculations, because with XIRR, you account for your current account value. In other words, if you dish out €90 and get back €100, your account value instantly increases by €10, which moves up XIRR. Compounding effect probably means they're calculating XIRR based on investments and repayments, not deposits and withdrawals? In other words, it calculates returns essentially per investment, not per portfolio, thus eliminating the compounding effect, since each investment is considered an investment from you. (also the reason, why cash drag is not accounted for)
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kulerucket
Member of DD Central
Posts: 336
Likes: 93
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Post by kulerucket on Aug 26, 2017 9:01:46 GMT
I don't know how Twino computes their rate (they say XIRR, but no details are given), but agree with most posters that it does seem more conservative than Mintos. I can always replicate Twino's calculation to 1dp using XIRR on the transfers in and the current value so I'm pretty sure this is what they do. I think their calculation takes cash drag into account too otherwise I would see my own rate being lower.
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Post by kissmyjazz on Aug 26, 2017 9:31:39 GMT
Probably we have to check their calculation really carefully because i also have the feeling even at approximately the same rates on twino and mintos i received overall lower amount on mintos! What do you mean by "I have the feeling". Either you did receive lower interest than is expected or you did not. Please give us real numbers.
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Post by southseacompany on Aug 26, 2017 13:36:21 GMT
The discount part automatically happens with most XIRR calculations, because with XIRR, you account for your current account value. In other words, if you dish out €90 and get back €100, your account value instantly increases by €10, which moves up XIRR. No, that's not what I mean. I'm talking about the situation where you buy a loan, possibly with years left on it, and don't sell it. If you buy a loan with par value of €100 at €90 (a 10% discount), Mintos will mark it as an investment of €100 and an immediate profit of €10, instead of the more sensible way of considering it an investment of €90 to begin with. The misrepresentation can be material if you are active on the secondary market. I know because it affects me. I took this screenshot from my Mintos account just now: 
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Post by kilozulu on Aug 26, 2017 14:54:30 GMT
The misrepresentation can be material if you are active on the secondary market. I know because it affects me. I took this screenshot from my Mintos account just now: You have impressive SM returns, how much time do you spend monitoring SM for attractive deals?
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Post by mopcku on Aug 26, 2017 15:54:06 GMT
Probably we have to check their calculation really carefully because i also have the feeling even at approximately the same rates on twino and mintos i received overall lower amount on mintos! What do you mean by "I have the feeling". Either you did receive lower interest than is expected or you did not. Please give us real numbers. Yes i did the calculation
For Twino i calculate 10.94% and Twino number is 10.96% For Mintos i calculate 9.67%(asuming i will be paid for defaulted Eurocent loans approx 10% of the exposure) and Mintos number is 11.03%
As it turns out my feeling wasnt that wrong 
Also Finbee i calculate XIRR 14.11% and they give average interest rate of 18% For Swaper XIRR my calc is 11% ant their profit rate 12.68% My Klear number is 6.5% they give 7.1% Viventor 7.05% and they claim XIRR 11.09%
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Post by southseacompany on Aug 26, 2017 16:39:58 GMT
The misrepresentation can be material if you are active on the secondary market. I know because it affects me. I took this screenshot from my Mintos account just now: You have impressive SM returns, how much time do you spend monitoring SM for attractive deals? Well, this is probably disappointing to hear, but to be honest: I wrote a program that checks the secondary market once a minute for what I consider to be undervalued loans. It turns out there aren't that many of them. I reckon that the majority of undervalued loans transacted in the secondary market are bought by me, but the amount I have in Mintos is about the maximum I can keep invested this way. So I think that opportunity is pretty much tapped (except maybe for long durations; I only target < 12 months). If anyone gets it in their head to copy this idea: At least target a different platform like Viventor/Swaper/Viainvest so you won't have to compete with me.
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