shimself
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Post by shimself on Oct 5, 2017 10:00:10 GMT
There are at least 2 projects, whitehaven on FS and Seafront on TC where photos taken by lenders show that progress is erm not as we have been told.
It seems a pretty simple matter to me to demand photos of progress made (complete with GPS), esp for FC with the 6 month rollovers, and why not publish them.
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Oct 5, 2017 11:51:40 GMT
There are at least 2 projects, whitehaven on FS and Seafront on TC where photos taken by lenders show that progress is erm not as we have been told. It seems a pretty simple matter to me to demand photos of progress made (complete with GPS), esp for FC with the 6 month rollovers, and why not publish them. Good idea but whether the platforms would be inclined to publish photos, etc.
I would just like confirmation from the platforms that there is active monitoring being applied rather than the lazy take the word of the borrower. You are correct in your assumptions of at least two projects. If I could be bothered there are many more that could be listed.
A great deal has been posted regarding the validity of LTV's being quoted by the platform(s) and how this figure fails when carrying out any simple DD. It becomes more serious when the platform simply throws more lender funds at a project when they have no proof as to actual progress made - if any. Are they simply naive, out of their depth, incompetent - the list could be endless. Until though they rectify this very basic flaw in their business model then I'm slowly withdrawing funds.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2017 12:41:52 GMT
I suspect there needs to be more of a "business process change" at many portals not just "get photos".
You need a likely plan-of-works for each project (really not that hard as they are mainly the same just with different time scales etc)
You need a management process that identifies which member of staff is capable of understanding where the photos should fit both in the physical project and the plan of works time scales and for one to one links between projects and staff member.
You need that individual to be able to have regular (I think weekly) reviews with senior management to ensure that the photos and the plan-of-works time scales are where they should be so that management get clear visibility of the state of play and can compare with cash payments etc from the borrower.
You need to make sure this does not become "time-heavy" after all we want them to focus on the money-wasters not the good guys.
On top of the plan of works, you also need similar on each step of the DD and cash movements.
That needs a process engineer to design the process (in collaboration with management and staff) and for staff to be trained with requisite graphical performance measures and this to be driven by a drum-beat from senior management.
I've done this before in a business turn around. It needs a bought-in expert at the centre with major input from key members of staff to see this as the most important project they get to do this year.
So photos help but, if you don't get the rest you just get a sticking plaster.
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shimself
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Post by shimself on Oct 5, 2017 13:58:16 GMT
I suspect there needs to be more of a "business process change" at many portals not just "get photos". .... You need to make sure this does not become "time-heavy" after all we want them to focus on the money-wasters not the good guys. .... So photos help but, if you don't get the rest you just get a sticking plaster. I'm a fan of cheap and cheerful. That's quite a long list you've come up with. If we can identify complete failures early on with a low skill low cost tool we've come a long way. For the majority of borrowers who have a good iea of what they are doing and have an honest intention to use the finance to complete project proiperly, having yet another monkey on their backs doing a lot of second guessing doesn't sound great.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2017 14:15:54 GMT
That list is not that long, I've spent a lot of my career digging companies out of the s@@ t which had been stumbling from cheap and chearful solutions to the next c@@k-up. Right now we have at least two very clumsy portals. I see the photo as core to the improvement, but photos don't solve anything, We need trained people to know when to shout "there is a discrepency between the photo and the plan" so we need a plan and we need trained people. After the puported sale of a ransom strip we need the actions of the contract manager to change, so trained and highlighting changes to management After the repeated late payments of interest leading to amazingly money being maybe used to run a court case we need a role for receipt of interest to be able to communicate and be trained in the new process. And of course it needs to be scalable. Or just some snaps...........
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Oct 5, 2017 14:31:26 GMT
That list is not that long, I've spent a lot of my career digging companies out of the s@ t which had been stumbling from cheap and chearful solutions to the next c@@k-up. Right now we have at least two very clumsy portals. I see the photo as core to the improvement, but photos don't solve anything, We need trained people to know when to shout "there is a discrepency between the photo and the plan" so we need a plan and we need trained people. After the puported sale of a ransom strip we need the actions of the contract manager to change, so trained and highlighting changes to management After the repeated late payments of interest leading to amazingly money being maybe used to run a court case we need a role for receipt of interest to be able to communicate and be trained in the new process. And of course it needs to be scalable. Or just some snaps........... Personally I don't require to see photos or other details as once my needs get to that stage then effectively my trust in the platform is close to zero. So far better I simply leave which is what I'm in the process of doing with a couple of platforms.
The Whitehaven along with the closed Turbine loan demonstrates that the platform(s) concerned were willing to hand over lenders/investors money in a cavalier attitude. There are other loans in existence where the same lack of platform diligence applies.
Simply stating that monitoring reports were in their possession and satisfactory would be good enough - for myself anyway.
Unfortunately, whatever is proposed on the forum is not going to be adopted as the vast majority of lenders are fazed by headline rates and do not bother reading the forum posts. So whilst many suggestions should be automatic IMO, especially when dealing with other folks money, I'm firmly of the conclusion that zero will happen whilst everything is 100% funded without too much difficulty.
Maybe things will change but it's going to be later rather than sooner.
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jonah
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Post by jonah on Oct 5, 2017 19:52:53 GMT
I like ACs approach of publishing the various MS updates along with each tranche of new cash. It also includes the ‘compare to plan’ mentioned above in the updated credit report. Whilst I’m not saying it’s perfect, it certainly helps me continue to invest there.
Maybe other places might want to follow suit?
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shimself
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Post by shimself on Oct 6, 2017 15:09:45 GMT
Yes but AC pay monitoring surveyors and so on and give us 8%, FS don't and pay us 12%. I can't put a figure on it, but it's not certain which is better for us. FS do a better job and pay us 11% sounds good. 1% on 250K for a year is 2500, and for that they could afford to put in some effort.
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jonah
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Post by jonah on Oct 6, 2017 19:03:24 GMT
Fair point. For 1% of FS loan book I could buy a camera and some fuel and take a few piccys. Not sure I have sufficient skill to judge them on progress.
The concept of a half way between FS and AC seems not impossible... but where to draw the line I don’t know. Maybe I’m too risk adverse though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2017 9:54:08 GMT
Yes but AC pay monitoring surveyors and so on and give us 8%, FS don't and pay us 12%. I can't put a figure on it, but it's not certain which is better for us. FS do a better job and pay us 11% sounds good. 1% on 250K for a year is 2500, and for that they could afford to put in some effort. Great point, of course FS could just put the supply of photos in the contract and make the borrower take and send them. Failure to hit photo-delivery date is a black mark.
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shimself
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Post by shimself on Oct 7, 2017 10:10:14 GMT
Yes but AC pay monitoring surveyors and so on and give us 8%, FS don't and pay us 12%. I can't put a figure on it, but it's not certain which is better for us. FS do a better job and pay us 11% sounds good. 1% on 250K for a year is 2500, and for that they could afford to put in some effort. Great point, of course FS could just put the supply of photos in the contract and make the borrower take and send them. Failure to hit photo-delivery date is a black mark. Especially as any mobile phone will take photos with built in GPS data, it's not at all onerous
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star dust
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Post by star dust on Oct 7, 2017 11:39:21 GMT
Have none of you heard of photoshop? Think independent verification might be best, or you'll get 'here's one I made earlier' together with 'funds in the post'. However, I can't see why that would be particularly expensive to get if you're just talking photo's.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2017 11:57:02 GMT
Which is why you also need sign offs as I suggest as my key points. Even these can be falsified but then you have a track record of fraud which becomes a criminal issue.
I like the idea of first-fit electrical/plumbing etc sign off by the sub con. All very easy, plus sign offs from Building Inspectors, "drains" signed off etc. PDF of same to responsible person at the portal. It can then be audited, "do you have an electrician so-and-so in your office, is he working on this project?".
Photos can be faked so you need a "net of evidence" to catch a successful project. You have to see this a positive process that automatically lets you spot a project-fraudster.
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shimself
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Post by shimself on Oct 7, 2017 15:20:57 GMT
Which is why you also need sign offs as I suggest as my key points. Even these can be falsified but then you have a track record of fraud which becomes a criminal issue. I like the idea of first-fit electrical/plumbing etc sign off by the sub con. All very easy, plus sign offs from Building Inspectors, "drains" signed off etc. PDF of same to responsible person at the portal. It can then be audited, "do you have an electrician so-and-so in your office, is he working on this project?". Photos can be faked so you need a "net of evidence" to catch a successful project. You have to see this a positive process that automatically lets you spot a project-fraudster. wouldn't a fake photo be proof of fraud?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 9:50:53 GMT
Yes it would, but since we want to "catch borrowers behaving" we need a process that does that, then when a borrower drifts off the honest line we want to be aware quickly to get them back. After all we don't want a process that waits until the money is all gone and then we go after them for fraud, we want to keep the money first.
The idea of "catch borrrowers behaving" is very critical and requires a change of mind set. At the moment I suspect many portals are in the "look for failures and then do nothing about it while we worry" mindset.
This is very much the "lean manufacturers" mind set and works incredibly well.
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