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Post by mrclondon on Oct 8, 2017 19:51:15 GMT
The P2PIF and the other forum have engaged in discussions since 8th September via an appointed spokesperson on each side, attempting to reach an amicable conclusion. In the end we simply had to agree to disagree. The key stumbling block in the eyes of P2PIF staff was that of "secrecy".Mrc.. Does this secrecy apply to ddcentral , because i have not been invited, so i will assume the conversations and due diligence discoveries over at ddcentral will be confidential to a privileged few, or will all information be revealed to the indie forumites? If you want to be involved in creating DD Central's modus operandi PM me, and I'll add you the group. We selected a relatively small number of people to start the discussion off and to guage whether there was any point in continuing the discussion, before opening it up to a wider audience. As per my earlier post the concept as proposed is
The core proposal is that a board structure will be created for discussing DD matters accessible by, and visible to, a relatively small group of forum members. Those forum members would develop the DD discussion here in DD Central free from redactions, and post appropriately redacted salient points on the public forum.
If felt appropriate, as the DD Central concept is fleshed out, some means of allowing this to be audited could be agreed. However P2PIF staff would the primary force behind monitoring that timely posting on the public forum is occurring (timely probably measured in hours not days)
Once DD Central is launched it is proposed that
The forum members involved would be tagged in some manner (to be agreed) such as DD Ambassador, DD Champion, DD Guru etc.
The proposal is that there will be complete transparency of those with access to DD Central once launched.
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registerme
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,624 
Likes: 6,437
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Post by registerme on Oct 8, 2017 20:02:51 GMT
The forum staff will have a "moderators lounge" where not just situations like this are discussed, but DD is shared (unhindered) between forum staff, would you be happy to open your doors for us to see what you discus away from "prying eyes".... ? As I type the mod forum has 545 threads and 6727 posts in it. The admin forum has 25 threads and 114 posts. I haven't counted them (no kidding) but I would guess that the number of posts that might be considered "due diligence" related, across both forums, is less than 20. By far the longest discussions are those where we either have to form consensus on mod related action or we talk about the future strategy of the forum. By necessity mod discussions have to remain private. That having been said I would have no problem at all with an external audit of the mod / admin forums by a lawyer or an audit firm. None whatsoever. Would you like to pay for it?  .
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Post by martin44 on Oct 8, 2017 20:03:52 GMT
Mrc.. Does this secrecy apply to ddcentral , because i have not been invited, so i will assume the conversations and due diligence discoveries over at ddcentral will be confidential to a privileged few, or will all information be revealed to the indie forumites? We selected a relatively small number of people to start the discussion off and to guage whether there was any point in continuing the discussion, before opening it up to a wider audience. As per my earlier post the concept as proposed is
The core proposal is that a board structure will be created for discussing DD matters accessible by, and visible to, a relatively small group of forum members. Those forum members would develop the DD discussion here in DD Central free from redactions, and post appropriately redacted salient points on the public forum.
If felt appropriate, as the DD Central concept is fleshed out, some means of allowing this to be audited could be agreed. However P2PIF staff would the primary force behind monitoring that timely posting on the public forum is occurring (timely probably measured in hours not days)
I would have loved to have been involved (and invited) into the concept of an open due diligence discussion, however your belated invite now relegates me to 'someone who might want to get involved' and not ' someone we might need' I am not privy to who you may have had discussions with in regards to the hidden forum, but i might suggest for the sake of all of us, that both the hidden forum and ddcentral start a collaboration that is to the benefit of all.
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Post by mrclondon on Oct 8, 2017 20:16:29 GMT
but i might suggest for the sake of all of us, that both the hidden forum and ddcentral start a collaboration that is to the benefit of all. Agree 100% ... the offer is open to any forum member to volunteer to lead the "DD Central" discussion. The proposal for DD Central we've outlined is just that it's a proposal that can be refined any which way into a solution that allows crowd DD to operate for the benefit of all 3500+ forum members. The early consensus though, is that some measure of transparency / auditability is desirable.
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Post by martin44 on Oct 8, 2017 20:22:25 GMT
but i might suggest for the sake of all of us, that both the hidden forum and ddcentral start a collaboration that is to the benefit of all. Agree 100% ... the offer is open to any forum member to volunteer to lead the "DD Central" discussion. The proposal for DD Central we've outlined is just that it a proposal that can be refined any which way into a solution that allows crowd DD to operate for the benefit of all 3500+ forum members. You got a like. (a rare one) but i totally agree. I cannot push this on personally because i'm not in the said position, but others are, and i would hope this can move forward positively from here.. don't see any reason why not. Ahh... you edited mrc... now others may be thinking again. Edit.. can we keep it clean and concept.
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Post by loftankerman on Oct 8, 2017 20:23:44 GMT
It looks to me like the decision to kick this thread off has gone pretty much as well as Mrs May's decision to call a snap general election recently. I find both saddening.
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Post by martin44 on Oct 8, 2017 20:27:23 GMT
It looks to me like the decision to kick this thread off has gone pretty much as well as Mrs May's decision to call a snap general election recently. I find both saddening. You shouldn't... positive discussion is always the way forward.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 20:43:45 GMT
Thank you mrclondon for trying so hard to 'Stand' and to make our Indy home a place where we can all coexist, I like your proposals which I'm pretty sure can be tweaked until the right balance is found a balance that meets the needs of most if not all of our Members. Well done for trying to reach out to seek consensus born of reasoned compromise, is this not the British way the way of all our peoples, is this not what we have been taught since our childhoods? Our Indy needs to redefine itself but to achieve this we need to meet one another and work things through. Over 100 years and three separate negotiating attempts were needed to bring my Nation Scotland and our Southern neighbour England to an agreement there was a determination that was never snuffed out and neither side gave up hope that one day we would become who we are today. Now if these deadly rivals could find a common way why not us? Come let's find a solution, please come to the table with a desire to seek the good of all of us. ENOUGH of this can't you see our Moderation's and Admin team are tired, nae exhausted, they are undermanned and over stretched, please stand together as one and protect what it is we treasure about our Indy 'home'. Please let's create the right conditions to allow for diplomatic efforts to continue and PLEASE no more abusing our Volunteer 'Staff' cut them some slack, give them some well deserved breathing space. Unity let's find Common ground. |
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Post by martin44 on Oct 8, 2017 20:59:11 GMT
Thank you mrclondon for trying so hard to 'Stand' and to make our Indy home a place where we can all coexist, I like your proposals which I'm pretty sure can be tweaked until the right balance is found a balance that meets the needs of most if not all of our Members. Well done for trying to reach out to seek consensus born of reasoned compromise, is this not the British way the way of all our peoples, is this not what we have been taught since our childhoods? Our Indy needs to redefine itself but to achieve this we need to meet one another and work things through. Over 100 years and three separate negotiating attempts were needed to bring my Nation Scotland and our Southern neighbour England to an agreement there was a determination that was never snuffed out and neither side gave up hope that one day we would become who we are today. Now if these deadly rivals could find a common way why not us? Come let's find a solution, please come to the table with a desire to seek the good of all of us. ENOUGH of this can't you see our Moderation's and Admin team are tired, nae exhausted, they are undermanned and over stretched, please stand together as one and protect what it is we treasure about our Indy 'home'. Please let's create the right conditions to allow for diplomatic efforts to continue and PLEASE no more abusing our Volunteer 'Staff' cut them some slack, give them some well deserved breathing space. Unity let's find Common ground.
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Post by lendinglawyer on Oct 8, 2017 21:07:32 GMT
Seriously? The mods can do one on this subject. They are the mods of this forum, not of all discussion regarding P2P lending. It is certainly not “crucial” that they supervise all such discussion.
Lol
That said I massively appreciate the work that goes into maintaining this valuable resource. But please let’s not pretend that it’s anything more than that. It’s not gospel. It’s a public forum. If people want to discuss in private that is their prerogativ. End of story.
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mikes1531
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,453
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Post by mikes1531 on Oct 8, 2017 21:34:11 GMT
2. The prohibition on identifying borrowers.<snip> I have now finished my rant but if this is what I know what about the other borrowers & loans that I don't know about, I dread to think. Have you been on the same red as me?  When I first saw jj's post, I had to read the (now-bold) part quoted above a number of times before I decided I knew what it meant. I may be misinterpreting, but I thought it simply was a case of needing the punctuation changed. When I turned it into ... ... if this is what I know, what about the other borrowers & loans that I don't know about? I dread to think."
... it echoes my own thoughts. And, no, I haven't had any of the red stuff -- yet! 
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Post by loftankerman on Oct 8, 2017 22:28:32 GMT
It looks to me like the decision to kick this thread off has gone pretty much as well as Mrs May's decision to call a snap general election recently. I find both saddening. You shouldn't... positive discussion is always the way forward. Great! I'm waiting, on both accounts.
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treeman
Member of DD Central
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Likes: 557
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Post by treeman on Oct 8, 2017 23:26:51 GMT
I still find the forum extremely useful. It would be a real shame to lose it.
P2P has evolved, we all have, and clearly the forum has to evolve too. The question is what do the members want this forum to become?
The forum has played the role of P2P intro/info source to all-comers for years. There is an ever-expanding number of review/comparison blogs etc which can serve that purpose now.
The whole 'public-facing' thing seems to be a big part of the problem. Can this forum itself not become private ? - meaning visible to members only, not accesible to lurkers/crawlers etc. Then disussion can be far more open.
I do however feel a little uneasy with a small group being able to decide what DD gets shared more widely.
For me the whole member-crowd should be (able to be) involved - not all are as DD competent as the super sleuths. Yet.
All could then benefit from the results and the process. We all need to learn somewhere - why not here?
The more hunters the better.
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aju
Member of DD Central
Posts: 3,500
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Post by aju on Oct 9, 2017 5:19:35 GMT
I've watched this debate so far and until someone spelled out it may end in the demise of the p2pif I just thought what is this all about?. Whilst over here on zopa we can influence very little about borrowers for obvious reasons - its getting harder even as we speak as anonymous ID's are becoming the norm according to FCA rules!.
Over here on the Zopa board, I'm not sure DD is that much use as I don't get to chose my loans, one thing I would say whilst I don't think its illegal for a company to do what people are suggesting (constant stream of companies new directors family members etc.) its definitely underhand and immoral IMHO. I knew of somebody a while back who has long since run out of family members and unsuspecting partners etc. I certainly made sure all my close people knew who they were and what they did.
Thing sort of stuff is the lifeblood of BBC watchdog and fake Britain to a name a few programmes that are current. Surely if there are companies that cannot DD this stuff out then why can't we name said companies are not interested in keeping them off their books. Those who find about these companies must have tried complaining to the Lending Platforms concerned. If those platforms are unable to weed them out or worse unwilling to then shouldn't a platform open or closed be informing us unsuspecting people in a similar way.
I'm not sure I am on the right track but for me if this whole debate just ends up shutting down p2pif then i'll just have to go back to before I discovered like minded people trying to help the less well informed in the P2P world. (Yes i know my P2p world is limited to say the least but its the one I know and trust the most.I'm not sure i trust it as much as in the past with recent silly changes but that's debated in another thread.)
P2p Open Forums are dead - long live p2p open forums ;-)
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invester
P2P Blogger
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Post by invester on Oct 9, 2017 7:02:36 GMT
I got a feeling that once a change is made with this DDCentral, then little will be done to help the smaller guys. Where is the incentive?
Lendy and FS will be more than happy that the discussion of their duff loans takes place where the public can't see it, and indeed I can forsee platforms begging the admins to move certain discussions to private - on the face of it claiming 'even the asterisks are identifying the borrower'! but underneath knowing that then it can't be read by potential investors. And because of that, their non-participation becomes easier to defend with the fragmentation of things.
I think it's a really poor decision myself. Sure, the 100 or so members invited to it may gain from enhanced DD and lose less capital as a result. The platforms also will gain because of less publicly visible displays of incompetence. But everyone else - the thousands of members and even more thousands of non-members who might read it, loses out.
If the other splinter group starts to charge a fee for their membership, does that mean DD Central will end up doing so as well? It seems that the core basis of doing so is because someone else has done it and to protect the forum from potential competitors becoming bigger and stealing a march, which to me, isn't the point.
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