hazellend
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,361
Likes: 2,179
|
Post by hazellend on Jun 5, 2023 18:47:44 GMT
Looking back through this thread is quite eye-opening. I've always through of myself as a "savvy" investor but I can't believe how trusting and naive I (and a lot of other fellow lenders) was until very close to the end. Not as positive as hazellend but not too far off either. In hindsight, there's a huge imbalance in the quantity+quality of information that the borrowers, MT and the lenders had, with the lenders being the least informed of the lot. Exposure wise, the lenders (and borrowers to some extent) had the most to lose while MT was quite well protected with opportunities to continue earning cash right to the end. Live and learn, I guess..... When I read my old comments it’s like a different person writing. P2P was basically a scam, I don’t know what the surviving companies are like but I wouldn’t touch it again. I have a very low threshold for assuming things are a scam now.
|
|
|
Post by Ace on Jun 5, 2023 18:51:25 GMT
Looking back through this thread is quite eye-opening. I've always through of myself as a "savvy" investor but I can't believe how trusting and naive I (and a lot of other fellow lenders) was until very close to the end. Not as positive as hazellend but not too far off either. In hindsight, there's a huge imbalance in the quantity+quality of information that the borrowers, MT and the lenders had, with the lenders being the least informed of the lot. Exposure wise, the lenders (and borrowers to some extent) had the most to lose while MT was quite well protected with opportunities to continue earning cash right to the end. Live and learn, I guess..... When I read my old comments it’s like a different person writing. P2P was basically a scam, I don’t know what the surviving companies are like but I wouldn’t touch it again. I have a very low threshold for assuming things are a scam now. P2P wasn't and isn't a scam. Some P2P platforms were scams.
|
|
toffeeboy
Member of DD Central
Posts: 504
Likes: 362
Member is Online
|
Post by toffeeboy on Jun 6, 2023 16:24:22 GMT
When I read my old comments it’s like a different person writing. P2P was basically a scam, I don’t know what the surviving companies are like but I wouldn’t touch it again. I have a very low threshold for assuming things are a scam now. P2P wasn't and isn't a scam. Some P2P platforms were scams. Unfortunately this is the problem a few bad apples are spoiling the whole barrel
|
|
|
Post by martin44 on Jun 6, 2023 20:18:12 GMT
When I read my old comments it’s like a different person writing. P2P was basically a scam, I don’t know what the surviving companies are like but I wouldn’t touch it again. I have a very low threshold for assuming things are a scam now. P2P wasn't and isn't a scam. Some P2P platforms were scams. Correct... both platforms and valuers were in on it big time.
|
|
|
Post by scepticalinvestor on Jun 7, 2023 6:04:41 GMT
I wouldn't go so far as calling the industry a scam but ultimately the information/power/incentive asymmetry, lack of regulation, ease of being a bad actor (borrowers, platform and collusion) and lack of skin in the game for platforms meant that by design 'investors' (lenders) would bear a disproportionate burden when anything went wrong. And by jove did things go wrong!
Even though the experience was personally painful and chastening, an era of normal/high (depending on your perspective) interest rates bringing an end to the proliferation of P2P platforms as an easy-money business idea, and heightened investor scepticism is imho a good outcome overall.
|
|
rocky1
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,119
Likes: 1,940
|
Post by rocky1 on Jun 7, 2023 8:11:10 GMT
with the amount of lenders money now in p2p and IFISAs the FCA should learn from their mistakes and ensure that these platforms are more transparent with lenders.wind down plans and administration means they are in a win win situation and just join the rest of the vultures when the sh*t hits the fan on defaulted loans and they just keep on throwing more loans out for lenders to fund until the wheel stops going round.fully audited accounts should be required each year.lenders should not be unsecured creditors,it is their bloody money that makes these loans possible in the first place.the FCA still has work to do to make p2p a more level playing field for lenders.
|
|
|
Post by jonrgrant on Jun 7, 2023 8:53:00 GMT
Maybe I am very Naive and innocent to the true objectives of the legal profession. However when I started investing into P2P, I fully understood the risks from certain borrowers defaulting on repayments and that returns due to defaults were never guaranteed. I did not however expect the number of P2P companies to be incapable of running and maintaining an efficient managed business that delivers P2P objectives and performance. I fail to fully understand what the purpose is and why the FCA exists. I would have thought, and obviously I am wrong, that this tax payer funded government department would have correctly audited and reviewed all P2P Companies that they have or claimed to have regulated, thus providing some assurance the P2P company is fit for purpose. Instead all that seems to have happened is the investors need to regulate the “risk” profile, Costs in time and finance has been imposed on companies and individuals to reduce efficiency and success. Then when the P2P companies (which for myself is over 80%) fail and go into administration, the Company instructed to Administer is not controlled in a way that maximises fund returns ie minimal financial protection again for the lenders. As said maybe I am naive and the objective is not protection of the individuals but instead to protect the big Financial Businesses and ensure their profits are maximised and we the small people are told, when and where we are allowed to invest and spend our earnings. Is a digital bank currency to now be introduced to further control individuals and preserve big business profits!
|
|
|
Post by scepticalinvestor on Jun 8, 2023 8:37:06 GMT
I did not however expect the number of P2P companies to be incapable of running and maintaining an efficient managed business that delivers P2P objectives and performance. I'd caveat the part above by saying that in the whole, the people who owned and managed these P2P firms have done quite well out of it.
|
|
11025
Member of DD Central
Posts: 718
Likes: 829
|
Post by 11025 on Jun 8, 2023 9:42:13 GMT
I did not however expect the number of P2P companies to be incapable of running and maintaining an efficient managed business that delivers P2P objectives and performance. I'd caveat the part above by saying that in the whole, the people who owned and managed these P2P firms have done quite well out of it. It is quite a disconcerting pattern that on the whole the people who owned and managed these P2P firms have done quite well out of it - whilst the lenders/investors have continually suffered.
|
|
toffeeboy
Member of DD Central
Posts: 504
Likes: 362
Member is Online
|
Post by toffeeboy on Jun 8, 2023 12:01:10 GMT
Maybe I am very Naive and innocent to the true objectives of the legal profession. However when I started investing into P2P, I fully understood the risks from certain borrowers defaulting on repayments and that returns due to defaults were never guaranteed. I did not however expect the number of P2P companies to be incapable of running and maintaining an efficient managed business that delivers P2P objectives and performance. I fail to fully understand what the purpose is and why the FCA exists. I would have thought, and obviously I am wrong, that this tax payer funded government department would have correctly audited and reviewed all P2P Companies that they have or claimed to have regulated, thus providing some assurance the P2P company is fit for purpose. Instead all that seems to have happened is the investors need to regulate the “risk” profile, Costs in time and finance has been imposed on companies and individuals to reduce efficiency and success. Then when the P2P companies (which for myself is over 80%) fail and go into administration, the Company instructed to Administer is not controlled in a way that maximises fund returns ie minimal financial protection again for the lenders. As said maybe I am naive and the objective is not protection of the individuals but instead to protect the big Financial Businesses and ensure their profits are maximised and we the small people are told, when and where we are allowed to invest and spend our earnings. Is a digital bank currency to now be introduced to further control individuals and preserve big business profits! I think that has been the problem up to the first collapse, I never considered the risk of the actual platform ceasing and then the administrators coming in and taking a large part of any of my capital before giving me my pittance that came back. One other issue seems to be extremely inept valuers who were happy to give P2P companies any number that they wanted/needed
|
|
11025
Member of DD Central
Posts: 718
Likes: 829
|
Post by 11025 on Jun 8, 2023 16:24:55 GMT
Maybe I am very Naive and innocent to the true objectives of the legal profession. However when I started investing into P2P, I fully understood the risks from certain borrowers defaulting on repayments and that returns due to defaults were never guaranteed. I did not however expect the number of P2P companies to be incapable of running and maintaining an efficient managed business that delivers P2P objectives and performance. I fail to fully understand what the purpose is and why the FCA exists. I would have thought, and obviously I am wrong, that this tax payer funded government department would have correctly audited and reviewed all P2P Companies that they have or claimed to have regulated, thus providing some assurance the P2P company is fit for purpose. Instead all that seems to have happened is the investors need to regulate the “risk” profile, Costs in time and finance has been imposed on companies and individuals to reduce efficiency and success. Then when the P2P companies (which for myself is over 80%) fail and go into administration, the Company instructed to Administer is not controlled in a way that maximises fund returns ie minimal financial protection again for the lenders. As said maybe I am naive and the objective is not protection of the individuals but instead to protect the big Financial Businesses and ensure their profits are maximised and we the small people are told, when and where we are allowed to invest and spend our earnings. Is a digital bank currency to now be introduced to further control individuals and preserve big business profits! I think that has been the problem up to the first collapse, I never considered the risk of the actual platform ceasing and then the administrators coming in and taking a large part of any of my capital before giving me my pittance that came back. One other issue seems to be extremely inept valuers who were happy to give P2P companies any number that they wanted/needed Yes totally correct , the current P2P platform setup and what happens when it fails and the administration system steps in are totally at odds with the secured lending aspect , as we now know when admin starts the situation is anything but secure , LTVs , quality of asset etc mean pretty much nothing then - in actual fact when platform failure , administration etc occur the loans and your money are more akin to a carcass waiting for anyone to come and try to feed on... All this whilst the fca looks on , not quite sure how the fca could have ever deemed this model as worthy of regulation and fit for purpose.
|
|
ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 10,843
Likes: 11,069
|
Post by ilmoro on Jun 8, 2023 17:03:19 GMT
- in actual fact when platform failure , administration etc occur the loans and your money are more akin to a carcass waiting for anyone to come and try to feed on... All this whilst the fca looks on , not quite sure how the fca could have ever deemed this model as worthy of regulation and fit for purpose. Not sure they did ... they got given it by Osbourne/govt/Parliament when P2P became a regulated activity in 2013/14 along with another load of stuff that doubled, or more, their workload overnight. Another issue is that there isnt actually a model but lots of different models that all fall under a general framework of P2P, both the regulated type & the non/perimeter type. Is it even the model or just circumstances of trying to tame the wild west ... I suspect we are about to see something similar with crypto though the FCA has the advantage of already having the basis of P2P et al regulation to work from, not something they had with P2P www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-introduces-tough-new-rules-marketing-cryptoassetsThats not to say that Failey et all didnt make a complete balls up of it
|
|
11025
Member of DD Central
Posts: 718
Likes: 829
|
Post by 11025 on Jun 8, 2023 17:17:01 GMT
I think there is a lot more to this than most realise.
Personally I think they knew things were very messy indeed and as usual chose to do nothing , finally , eventually moderately reactive but never proactive .
Much more will come out - This whole discussion needs to be given further sunlight.
|
|
ozboy
Member of DD Central
Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
Posts: 3,156
Likes: 4,830
|
Post by ozboy on Jun 8, 2023 17:49:26 GMT
Not to mention that the former Directors are undoubtedly still receiving hefty fees for "Consulting" with the Administrators on the mess they created.
|
|
rocky1
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,119
Likes: 1,940
|
Post by rocky1 on Jun 8, 2023 18:29:46 GMT
do administrators report their findings on how/why these platforms failed so badly?directors conduct and blatant misrepresentation of the true situations and still taking lenders funds while knowing the end was nigh. doing every thing to cover their own ars*s and secure as much of our funds with their T&Cs before calling in administrators knowing that it will take years to unravel the truth and will still be a nice little earner for them.lenders rank very low in the pecking order once the white collar brigade arrive.
|
|