stokeloans
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Post by stokeloans on Oct 25, 2017 11:11:50 GMT
I missed off the point,but you get my point 😀
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ozboy
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Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
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Post by ozboy on Oct 25, 2017 16:23:08 GMT
To be fair p2p has only recently been a far more hands on business as an investor with knowledge of borrowers and risk management becoming far more important and a closer correlation between decision making and likely returns/losses. Much emotion is involved as investors often feel they have misjudged or even lied to. A bit like comments on news articles in the guardian , you are only hearing from the vocal minority, those that actually feel strong enough to put finger to keyboard, most are still just getting on with it. Clear headed DD remains incredibly valuable though. Not feel, in at least one instance Investors have been lied to, and blatantly at that. A Platform and/or "RICS Professional Surveyor" in the docks before Christmas would benefit the industry as a whole immeasurably, IMHO. I'd even be happy with Easter!
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Oct 27, 2017 9:06:12 GMT
I have withdrawn about half of my UK P2P money. I think that too many platforms are offering the same type of highly speculative loans with dubious security and to people with bad track records. The defaults are only appearing recently as loans were extended, but there had to be a limit to that. Same here. I started with Zopa over 10 years ago and increased my investments considerably about 5 years ago, peaking early in 2016. Since then I have been reducing on almost every platform except one or two which I thought were lower risk and low effort (with significantly lower returns as well). My guess is that I will declare about a quarter of the P2P income in 2017/18 that I did in 2016/17 Might we see robust FCA and/or RICS action soon? Might there be prosecutions and imprisonment? The industry undoubtedly needs cleaning up. I don't think so and no respectively. Most of these platforms have just passed FCA approval and are unlikely to get that much scrutiny in the near future. Also the FCA have said that they don't think that P2P investors are vulnerable i.e. if a loan is paying 12% it probably involves significant risk and they think that most investors can spot that. The low hanging fruit was gobbled up long ago, now many platforms appear to be in a position of having to lower their standards to attract business (how high those standards were in the first place is now proving to be 'not very'). Also there has been competition from other types of investor competing directly with P2P (but with institutional money), and many of the banks have returned to some of the sectors they abandoned after the banking crisis. “Defaults mount”? I’ve been investing in p2p for 2.5 years across a few different platforms and to date the only “losses” ive suffered are the sell out charges at ratesetter. What I have noticed is a massive increase in is platform bashing, mostly from posters who admit they no longer have anything with that platform?? But continue to turn up on a p2p forum just to tell certain platforms how terrible they are. With a balanced portfolio and no stock market crash for quite a few years I wonder how painful a few defaults in p2p will look compared to a 40% loss in the stock market. I’m happy to continue with p2p as a small percentage of my investments. I can continue to get way above inflation returns and if there’s any liquidity left in the p2p when the markets finally crash then I can use some of it to top up when everything is on sale. I have been very lucky as far a losses are concerned, but a lot of P2P is essentially based on trust and that is easily lost and people will feel bitter. There are too many cases in which the platform seems to have had a relationship, or multiple borrowers are in fact the same borrower, or the security wasn't taken correctly, or basic procedures followed such as ensuring that the house wasn't half owned by the wife the borrower. On many platforms I have seen such incidents and I have decided that I am taking more risk than the returns justify. I don't think anyone is suggesting selling all P2P investments and buying equities, but if they did fall 40% at least I would own some cheap assets and I would be pleased to have significantly reduced my P2P investments, because I guess that I would have been looking at more than a few defaults. Clear headed DD remains incredibly valuable though. Detailed DD is hard to do whilst remaining diversified. At least two platforms I have abandoned were because having done my DD I then got allocated very small pieces of the loans. And with several other platforms I found that I was spending a lot of time and yet was making only a few extra pounds per year for the effort, which for me wasn't worth it.
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jj
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Jolly Jammy
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Post by jj on Oct 27, 2017 16:15:38 GMT
I have withdrawn about half of my UK P2P money. I think that too many platforms are offering the same type of highly speculative loans with dubious security and to people with bad track records. The defaults are only appearing recently as loans were extended, but there had to be a limit to that. I am worried that unsavory characters have cotton on to the fact that its an easy way to get money without the necessary checks. They can get money without revealing their credit history or what the true intention is for the money. Just make up some story in a glossy document.
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rxdav
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Post by rxdav on Oct 27, 2017 20:29:03 GMT
I agree with a great deal of what has been written on this thread - the overwhelming majority in fact. I too have significantly decreased my overall P2P lending and reduced the platforms I now actively use - for reasons of trust (lack of) or because the returns have now reduced to levels I remember getting totally risk free as interest from High Street Banks and Building Society's (although not for quite a while admittedly). Furthermore, I do think that there will be a reckoning in the not too distant future as a platform goes to the wall (and/or Courtroom) - or suffers a similar ignominious fate (with lenders likely taking a haircut - or worse). The problem is that I am already broadly diversified - I have a chunk in gold (a good insurance but no return), I have a big chunk in the stock market (widely diversified by asset class, geo-political risk and geography) but as has been pointed out we are likely very near if not actually at the inflection point. I also have money in property - again, likely at its peak and I hold some cash, which hasn't been an issue for some years with inflation near zero (but now touching 3% - it can no longer be ignored). I've even played with Bitcoin (with a minor success actually) - but you simply can't sleep easy with such huge volatility - well I couldn't! I suspect this is a not unfamiliar saga for many who frequent this forum - and of course the question is - well if not P2P, what? It may well be that holding a much greater percentage as cash may well prove to be the eventual winning strategy - and I'm increasingly inclined to this view. However, those who warned of previous Stock Market corrections for example (i.e. bubbles) were invariably too early with predictions of doom - by years in some cases (think Greenspan in the mid 90's) - with major loss of growth for those who baled out prematurely. In some ways I'm thinking that in this digital age we are being presented with too many relatively embryonic financial options and choices that we are often ill equipped to objectively judge - try as we might. It has become crystal clear that passive investing is not even an option if you are serious about making your capital work for you - and that is unlikely to change anytime in the near future. But I do feel that I am spending too much time moving money, considering and researching options, looking at my laptop screen etc. - I do miss just checking my investments occasionally as I might have done in times of yore. I won't get into why we are where we are - it's not really relevant here - but I am becoming increasingly resentful of feeling compelled to take increased financial risk to get an adequate (a subjective term I accept) return on capital - and perhaps more worryingly of getting accustomed to taking increased risk. I accept I will have no-one to blame but myself if it all goes belly up - but I still can't help having this germ of suspicion that I am being somehow manipulated by macro forces beyond my control. Whilst I would welcome an increase in the interest rate many would find that very difficult - there is a whole generation now who have never experienced high interest rates (many here will remember paying 15% of their mortgage - ouch). Finally, I do feel an increasing resentment towards HMG - who are ultimately responsible for many of the financial decisions which have brought us to this rather precarious situation (although they will gladly pass the buck to 'global' forces). Nevertheless, I shall carry on carrying on and try to keep dodging the bullets - as we do - but I'm not a very happy Bunny at the moment. However, I guess I shouldn't whinge too much as I still have choices - many don't. Ramble over.
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JamesFrance
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Port Grimaud 1974
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Post by JamesFrance on Oct 28, 2017 9:01:34 GMT
The whole financial system seems to have become unbalanced and yes the fault lies with politicians and central bankers pursuing short term objectives.
There should never be a need for taxpayers to subsidise people who are working. The problem is not that pay is too low but rather that the cost of living is much too high, propelled by crazy property prices which have occurred because the cost of mortgage borrowing has been artificially kept down for fear of mass repossessions when borrowers cannot meet their repayments.
One hears about the cost of care homes for example, which charge enormous amounts but are still making a loss after they have financed the property they operate from. No 2% mortgages for them or other borrowers who have to turn to P2P for finance thus inflating their costs.
Something has to change but nobody seems to have any idea how to deal with it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2017 10:06:09 GMT
In terms of the original question I think we have to recognise that FC with the lion's share of the market probably gets the base line rate about right of 6.5 to 7.5% true interest rate. (and no I dont like FC's system) but the revert to average concept must be our guide.
If you want to get more than this core 7% in this environment then you need to be able to bet better than this core volume. In my life I've found very few ways to beat the core but when I have it boils down to
1) betting on a very good person you know personally 2) a very strong track record of beating the core daily not just every other year 3) a company that really sticks to its knitting not just wanders about the place 4) a company that is forced to monitor performance tightly not just lets things run
These three options lead me to only a few portals that I'm using 1) MT comes good on 2 and 4 2) FS comes good but only on pawn (their knitting) 3) AC on turbines only and even then not comfortable
That leaves me a bunch of portals that need to come off my radar. RS can't reach 7%. FC I don't trust to reach 7% when they change the rules next, AC when the turbines are gone they are gone, COL (still too early), ALB I think they struggle to think like a lender and the length of their loans worries me, Lendy jury still out.
The rest of this debate; In terms of the financial institutions, the globalisation of the capital markets, QE and so the criminalisation of London's financial markets is a problem. When you put that with the changes in Pension rules a fair few years back has meant that house prices are buoyed by lack of pensions and criminal money. This has put the youth of the UK in a situation where a house is no longer affordable so taking them out of the financial net that older people enjoy. Mrs T saw this years ago with her right to buy, how can you expect the voters to vote for an economic situation that they are excluded from?
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Post by davee39 on Oct 28, 2017 10:10:03 GMT
The whole financial system seems to have become unbalanced and yes the fault lies with politicians and central bankers pursuing short term objectives. There should never be a need for taxpayers to subsidise people who are working. The problem is not that pay is too low but rather that the cost of living is much too high, propelled by crazy property prices which have occurred because the cost of mortgage borrowing has been artificially kept down for fear of mass repossessions when borrowers cannot meet their repayments. One hears about the cost of care homes for example, which charge enormous amounts but are still making a loss after they have financed the property they operate from. No 2% mortgages for them or other borrowers who have to turn to P2P for finance thus inflating their costs. Something has to change but nobody seems to have any idea how to deal with it. There is someone who has interesting ideas about radical change, he just is not popular among the wealthier members of this forum. (Jeremy Corbyn). Take just one radical idea, re-purposing QE. So far a huge sum of money has been created and used to buy government debt. This provides an income stream from interest and maturities. The first priority is to end outrageous PPI deals, secondly the income stream could be directed towards public investment, particularly social housing. Looking to the longer term, the Swansea Tidal Power project is planned to be a 120 year investment, but is demanding subsidies from a government which cannot see past the end of the week. This is an obvious candidate for public finance and development. Finally, P2P on a Grand Scale, a £10 billion 30 year index linked infrastructure bond,marketed at savers, to benefit all parts of the UK (ie not just London) might be a way to boost the economy following possible Brexit shocks.
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marka
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Post by marka on Oct 28, 2017 10:55:18 GMT
There is someone who has interesting ideas about radical change, he just is not popular among the wealthier members of this forum. (Jeremy Corbyn). Trust me you don't have to be wealthy to recognise the car crash waiting to happen if the UK public elect him to power.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Oct 28, 2017 12:26:09 GMT
There is someone who has interesting ideas about radical change, he just is not popular among the wealthier members of this forum. (Jeremy Corbyn). I dont think it is just weathly people who are a bit concerned about Corbyn. The guy is basically a Marxist which has been pretty widely shown through the social experiments of the 20th century to be a disaster. I can see why young people who have basically been shafted by the corrupt crony capitalist system we now have in place like the guy, and I do think he believes that he can build a better world/country - unfortunately the reality is likely to be very different.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Oct 28, 2017 13:39:56 GMT
/mod hat off, political economist hat on ..
The basic problem, as I read it (which may be wrong) is that since ~1975-ish, the growth in output/economy has stopped feeding through to growth in living standards/wages/whatever for 'joe average'. Increasingly the extra profits (and there are some - the new economy companies like Amazon, Google etc make profits that Ford/Exon/etc never quite managed) are going to a very few 'at the top', or the owners of the capital. 'Joe average' is struggling to even find a job in many cases (automation continues to encroach everywhere .. if you think Uber is bad for someone's business wait for self drive taxis, and self driven trucks/planes). Taxing employees doesn't hack it when there aren't any, and taxing 'company profits' which turn out to all belong in Luxembourg on The Cayman Islands, has not worked too well either. And yep, there are better tax breaks for the elderly/retired (heating allowance for all .. where does that come from?!) than for the unemployed (shortly to be unemployable) young. Hey, I'm a (wishy-washy-pink) capitalist, but having the 8 richest folks on the planet own more wealth than the poorest 4,000,000,000 seems like ineffective distribution of resources .... eventually the 4,000,000,000 WILL kick back.
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stub8535
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personal opinions only. Not qualified to advise on investment products.
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Post by stub8535 on Oct 28, 2017 14:26:43 GMT
/mod hat off, political economist hat on .. The basic problem, as I read it (which may be wrong) is that since ~1975-ish, the growth in output/economy has stopped feeding through to growth in living standards/wages/whatever for 'joe average'. Increasingly the extra profits (and there are some - the new economy companies like Amazon, Google etc make profits that Ford/Exon/etc never quite managed) are going to a very few 'at the top', or the owners of the capital. 'Joe average' is struggling to even find a job in many cases (automation continues to encroach everywhere .. if you think Uber is bad for someone's business wait for self drive taxis, and self driven trucks/planes). Taxing employees doesn't hack it when there aren't any, and taxing 'company profits' which turn out to all belong in Luxembourg on The Cayman Islands, has not worked too well either. And yep, there are better tax breaks for the elderly/retired (heating allowance for all .. where does that come from?!) than for the unemployed (shortly to be unemployable) young. Hey, I'm a (wishy-washy-pink) capitalist, but having the 8 richest folks on the planet own more wealth than the poorest 4,000,000,000 seems like ineffective distribution of resources .... eventually the 4,000,000,000 WILL kick back. Up the revolution! Corbyn is a sign of things to come. The greedy and corrupt at the top have only themselves to blame, whatever political colour they may claim their flag to be. Look at what happened in the USA when the corrupt money started to try and sway things by putting a puppet into the presidents chair. The latest puppet bit their arm off and has gone rogue. Come on Kim, do us all a favour and send a special present for the president to open. Wonder who could be behind Kim? A one armed very rich puppeteer that did not learn from past mistakes? Nicola Sturgeon and Angela Merkel for president and chancellor of the World! What can possibly go wrong? “If you want to keep a secret, you must also hide it from yourself.” "War is Peace" Brought to you by minilov, minipax, miniplenty and minitrue. Dystopia was delayed from the original prediction date of 1984. Is art becoming reality?
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ozboy
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Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
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Post by ozboy on Oct 28, 2017 14:54:49 GMT
I'm pleased to see that this Topic is ongoing, and still garnering valid & interesting comments, thank you all. Re "since ~1975-ish, the growth in output/economy has stopped feeding through to ", it's during the 1970s that the world currencies finally abandoned all vestiges of the gold standard, a tectonic and stupid move that will have repercussions that have still yet to be felt. I mean, do you trust any Government when your currency is backed by a promise to pay, with only Debt behind it?! EDIT: Apologies, just realised how much this has veered off topic!
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rxdav
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Post by rxdav on Oct 28, 2017 15:42:44 GMT
I'm pleased to see that this Topic is ongoing, and still garnering valid & interesting comments, thank you all. Re "since ~1975-ish, the growth in output/economy has stopped feeding through to ", it's during the 1970s that the world currencies finally abandoned all vestiges of the gold standard, a tectonic and stupid move that will have repercussions that have still yet to be felt. I mean, do you trust any Government when your currency is backed by a promise to pay, with only Debt behind it?! EDIT: Apologies, just realised how much this has veered off topic! I totally concur with your synopsis of the abandonment of the gold standard (President Nixon (AKA: Tricky Dicky) was responsible if I recall?)) - fiat money wallowing in an ocean of debt will never be a serious long term substitute (for how many hundreds (thousands?) of years was gold the principle internationally recognised and highly successful medium of exchange?). Furthermore, if any politician of any persuasion simply told me the sun was shining I would feel compelled to look out of the window to check the veracity of the claim - let alone believe anything I was promised of any meaning, impact or substance (yes, call me a cynic).
The prime reason why I hold bullion in my portfolio (not as derivatives, ETF's of whatever) - because if and when it really does all go bang big style, physical gold will again rule. I guess that's why there's an adage that says (approximately) 'put a chunk of your wealth into gold - and pray you never have to use it'.
Off topic? - likely.
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angrysaveruk
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Say No To T.D.S
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Post by angrysaveruk on Oct 28, 2017 19:20:58 GMT
Up the revolution! Corbyn is a sign of things to come. Corbyn will never get any where near number 10. Whatever I personally think about his political views he is without any doubt a political maverick and a threat to the status quo - people like that get shot down one way or another....
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