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Post by optymystic on Dec 2, 2018 16:34:42 GMT
Inevitably saving is largely an older person's activity. How many young people are actually in a position to save? Therefore the numbers of older people or their executors needing to cash in their debentures during the next couple of years are bound to be significant. But during the next couple of years the debentures are unlikely to be marketable.
"The heat generated will be sold to B*B B******". Well of course it will there is no other way of using heat, short of the non-existent district heating scheme, so the directors of B*B B******, who just happen to be the directors of M****** V***** CHP can buy it at whatever price they wish to pay.
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liso
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Post by liso on Dec 3, 2018 11:17:37 GMT
The secrecy and lack of transparency surrounding this loan make it very difficult to trust what we are now being told, and what is proposed.
If it is true that the refused accreditation was an 'error' by Ofgem, why is a claim not being made against them for the close of the business etc? The MV directors say they have no plans to do this "at the moment" (does that mean ever?) because it would be a costly lengthy process. And with no guarantee that our money would be returned, no doubt. Converting our investment from a 1-year debenture paying 12% to a 18-year debenture paying 5% is also a costly lengthy process, giving a much poorer return to investors over a very long period, and with no guarantee that our money will be returned. And we are being asked to inject additional capital.
Whose interests are being served?
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scc
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Post by scc on Dec 3, 2018 11:19:47 GMT
Yeah, I got to admit this isn't quite how I imagined the circular economy working.
I voted yes as even before this hiccup I'd planned to convert to the long term offer, but won't chuck anymore in. My view is that given where interest rates/inflation are likely to go - we're trading a severe short term haircut for probably getting our money back nominally in dribs and drabs over the next 20 years or so. Useful lesson to learn.
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Post by optymystic on Dec 3, 2018 16:38:22 GMT
I voted yes as even before this hiccup I'd planned to convert to the long term offer, but won't chuck anymore in. I can see many others taking that view. Unfortunately if the extra £650000 isn't thrown into the kitty, there is no long term offer. Brexit analogies abound, there is no good way out of here.
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Dec 3, 2018 17:02:30 GMT
I didn't see deadlines for either the vote or the additional funding, did I miss something?
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Post by optymystic on Dec 3, 2018 17:19:16 GMT
I didn't see deadlines for either the vote or the additional funding, did I miss something? To the yes voter, time is of the essence, the sooner the boilers are restarted the sooner they generate a return.
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liso
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Post by liso on Dec 3, 2018 17:32:29 GMT
I didn't see deadlines for either the vote or the additional funding, did I miss something? All votes need to be submitted by 22nd December (p42 of the Offer Doc). Additional funding will close if target amount reached by that date. Unclear what happens if not.
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Post by optymystic on Dec 3, 2018 21:51:03 GMT
All votes need to be submitted by 22nd December (p42 of the Offer Doc). "The proposal vote and this investment will be open until 22 December (with the option to extend to 18 January)." Abundance website under Updates
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scc
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Post by scc on Dec 4, 2018 12:44:01 GMT
I voted yes as even before this hiccup I'd planned to convert to the long term offer, but won't chuck anymore in. I can see many others taking that view. Unfortunately if the extra £650000 isn't thrown into the kitty, there is no long term offer. Brexit analogies abound, there is no good way out of here. Yes, fair comment and a combination of the time of year together with an investment in the other similarly named/owned offer from these peeps (which I'm waiting to see what happens to that) means putting in an additional contribution is not an option at the moment.
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Post by optymystic on Dec 5, 2018 14:33:13 GMT
M****w V****y CHP is asking us to raise a further £650000 in addition to the £3.9 mn we have already invested. I don’t have visibility of what has happened to the other M****w V****y debentures so I’ll stick for present purposes to CHP.
M****w V****y CHP is telling us that on the proposed repayment schedule we will receive an aggregate rate of return of 5%. I have run the figures through a spreadsheet and I can confirm that 5% in aggregate is calculated as from 1st January 2019 (sic) right up to 31st December 2036 so it includes the initial fallow 18 months in which we don’t see a penny of return and what is more our debentures are distinctly unmarketable at anything approaching face value. Now if we assume that A*******e is taking its customary 1% per annum and waiving its 5% up front on the additional funds, M****w V****y is paying 6% pa over the 18 years of the loan, plus an additional 1% on the £650000 (=£6500). 6% of £4.55 mn is £273000 per annum. So the value M****w V****y is placing on the aggregate loans from the debenture holders is (£273000 + £6500) £279500 per annum.
M****w V****y CHP is using known technology and its managers have expertise within the field so from a purely commercial point of view it looks like low risk investment. However, we know it to have experienced regulatory difficulties. We also know that is over 50% subsidy dependent and while it is not reasonable to expect the subsidy regime to alter from year to year it is equally unreasonable to expect the subsidy regime to remain constant over the next 18 years. Governments and policies will change. The key plant over which we have a debenture consists of a battery of reciprocating engines which cannot last for ever. They must require maintenance and replacement at some time. A business which is struggling to repay its debt and needs 18 months fallow to get back to profitability is unlikely to be making provision to recapitalize its plant. The investment must be regarded as one of high risk, because there is ample scope for things to go wrong while there is no upside beyond the possibility of the debenture holders getting their money back with a little bit of interest after twenty years.
It is interesting to note that the deferred repayment schedule selected by the directors of M****w V****y shifts the burden of the risk onto the debenture holders who provide funding but receive nothing if the the firm fails within the next two years.
Let’s say for purposes of argument that the additional fund-raising fails to raise anything like the £650000. What happens next? The plant in a fire sale is worth very little. It is worth far more to the business. How much would a rational investor pay for the plant? How much would it pay to take over the plant to lend M****w V****y CHP the funds to continue in business?
In my ignorance, I suggest that a rational commercial investor e.g the owners of the nearby business park, would want a return from a high risk investment like this of a minimum of 12.5% per annum and it would want it now, not at some time in the distant future. It would also want to recover its capital reasonably promptly particularly given the fact that one sixth of it is pure start up funding to get the business going again. I suggest that the maximum time in which an investor would want to recover the loan would be twelve years. For the calculation which follows I am going to ignore the eighteen month fallow period proposed by M****w V****y, though that would leave something of a revenue crisis in year one, 2019.
According to my spreadsheet, at an interest rate of 12.5% pa over twelve years £279500 per annum would amortize a principal sum of £1.69 mn. So the cavalry could ride to the rescue with an offer for the assets of the business of £1.69 mn, but of that £1.69 mn, £0.65 mn is the new start up funding required by the business leaving a mere £ 1.04mn to pay the debenture holders. Calculated in this way, and I am more than happy to be challenged on my assumptions or arithmetic, M****w V****y CHP is valuing the plant at £ 1mn or roughly 26 p in the £1 for the existing debenture holders.
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Post by optymystic on Dec 7, 2018 14:24:28 GMT
The weakness of the P2P Independent Forum is that the more you deploy it as a source of Brexit diversion therapy, something to take your mind off B*****t, the more your focus on M*****w V****y, the more the depressing parallels remind you of B****t. Rather like B*****t we are faced with the depressing choice, damned if we do damned if we don't. I think we have no practical option but to pony up the extra cash if we don't want to see our debentures wiped out and on that particular subject I cannot resist suggesting that if we held junk bonds as in real junk bonds rather than bonds which merely happen to be junk, we could at least sell them for a derisory price, whereas with A*******e we have no prospect of selling for some time at any price.
On the subject of the status of those bonds, now due to be converted into bonds redeemable over 18 years and 20 years since the equipment was first deployed, the Arbor Heat and Power web site shows three options in the second of which Siemens leasing offers a lease purchase arrangement over up to 7 years. Again, I'm an amateur, I'm neither engineer, nor accountant, nor financier, but if the maximum lending period Siemens will offer on this kit is 7 years, then it looks to me as if the expected working life of the kit is a lot closer to 10 years than the twenty over which we are being invited to finance it.
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Post by GentlemansFamilyFinances on Dec 12, 2018 16:43:54 GMT
I am lucky to have nothing invested in the C*P and not much in the B**m**s debentures. It's a stain on an otherwise good record from A***d***e and to be honest - there's a lot worse P2P lender out there!
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Post by captainconfident on Dec 13, 2018 10:46:17 GMT
Why does the refinance have to involve the original debenture holders at all? We have de-risked the project with the original investment & subsequent accreditation. Now the owners say "Give us more money or we'll close it down and you'll lose". Why can't they refinance it on the open market? I'm sure there are banks and pension funds which look for this type of revenue stream lasting 20 years, and that's far more appropriate than shaking down my 84 year old Mum.
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liso
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Post by liso on Dec 13, 2018 12:06:00 GMT
Why does the refinance have to involve the original debenture holders at all? We have de-risked the project with the original investment & subsequent accreditation. Now the owners say "Give us more money or we'll close it down and you'll lose". Why can't they refinance it on the open market? I'm sure there are banks and pension funds which look for this type of revenue stream lasting 20 years, and that's far more appropriate than shaking down my 84 year old Mum. Good questions, to which I doubt there are any good answers.
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Dec 13, 2018 12:59:45 GMT
Why does the refinance have to involve the original debenture holders at all? We have de-risked the project with the original investment & subsequent accreditation. Now the owners say "Give us more money or we'll close it down and you'll lose". Why can't they refinance it on the open market? I'm sure there are banks and pension funds which look for this type of revenue stream lasting 20 years, and that's far more appropriate than shaking down my 84 year old Mum. I suppose the obvious answer is that for a newcomer the reward offered is inadequate for the risk involved and the equation is different for those investors hoping to recover their existing investment.
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