aju
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Post by aju on Nov 28, 2017 12:57:11 GMT
Don't you have to wait 5-10 years before you have all the recovery numbers in? Assuming Z actually chase the borrowers through bankruptcy, CCJ, IVA, etc. These are unsecured loans. Z cannot chase through bankruptcy or IVA (that's an individual's choice, hence the name). There most severe options are registering a default, and reporting this to the credit reference agencies. They could register a CCJ but the costs are prohibitive (over £1,000) with no legal power that increases recovery. They could place a charging order over property, but this is expensive and time consuming. I suspect that Zopa chase (emails, calls, etc) and register defaults. But nothing more. Kevin. In some case it may be longer than 10 years even. I have a number that are not yet closed have paid the odd 1p or 2 every 2/3 months (Probably as smaller payments are shared across all lenders some getting something 1 month and not the next 2 say). Some are paying off capital - again slowly but they are paying, some are paying off capital and smaller interest etc. But i've written them all off from day one and put them out of my headspace. I keep a tally of yearly returns of my whole investment - usually in the april tax year end - and I have always had better than 5% for most years. I expect this year to be slightly less based on current 12 month extrapolations of returns and invested amounts (current return / no_months_so_far * 12). Its not foolproof but its an indicator none the less. (Lets hope I don't have a sudden flurry of £10 defaults in the last month though  .
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Post by BrianC on Nov 28, 2017 21:26:13 GMT
I’ve just had another look at selling out of Plus. My conclusion is that I’m pretty much trapped. If I sell out now I get less than 90% of my invested plus money back. That’s due to the Zopa fee, the rate fee and because almost 10% of my loans can’t be sold. They can’t be sold I assume because they’re in arrears. Going by past and ongoing performance I have no reason to believe any significant amount of those loans will turn it around and come good. Therefore on top of losses already, I have to pay 2 fees to exit Plus and I’d get left with a load of s*** loans that aren’t repaying.
Subtracting the fees and loans in arrears from my lifetime Zopa earnings leaves about £300. I’ve been in Zopa since 2006 and at times have had up to £20000 invested. So if I leave now I take a £300 profit from 11 years investment from a relatively large invested sum. Shocking! The dilemma is do I hold on in the hope that the plus loans that are repaying will be worthwhile keeping or should I bail now before my lifetime Zopa earnings go negative? It must only be a matter of time. I truly am at a loss to understand why anyone who reads these boards still invests with Zopa.
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Post by newlender on Nov 29, 2017 8:03:15 GMT
The problem with Z+ is that a lot of defaults come early on and so that skews our perceptions a bit. But I too have been shocked at my (£500+) losses on a fairly modest portfolio. As this coincided with wanting to fully fund my ISA I decided to do that with cash plus drawdown, mainly from Z+. I have gone from about £9K in Z+ to £1.5K in Z+ (Investing). Tomorrow I'm going to take a valuation (Z+) and leave it for a year with reinvestment turned on.
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Post by wyndstryke on Nov 29, 2017 9:04:35 GMT
That 10% still has value. Note that the most common reason for not being able to sell loans is that some of them will be in the 'awaiting payment' phase of the month (I'm not sure how many days it lasts - anyone?). Try selling them again a couple of weeks later and you should have some success.
Ever since 'rapid return' (the secondary market) was introduced, buying and selling within a few months has always been a costly exercise (except in 'access' of course). It probably takes a few months before you break even on the 1% fee, for example. IMO you should treat Zopa as a medium-to-long term investment (years rather than months). When extracting money from Zopa I have always followed the path of turning off reinvestment and gradually retrieving the money that way instead.
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ashtondav
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Post by ashtondav on Nov 29, 2017 10:30:31 GMT
I’ve just had another look at selling out of Plus. My conclusion is that I’m pretty much trapped. If I sell out now I get less than 90% of my invested plus money back. That’s due to the Zopa fee, the rate fee and because almost 10% of my loans can’t be sold. They can’t be sold I assume because they’re in arrears. Going by past and ongoing performance I have no reason to believe any significant amount of those loans will turn it around and come good. Therefore on top of losses already, I have to pay 2 fees to exit Plus and I’d get left with a load of s*** loans that aren’t repaying. Subtracting the fees and loans in arrears from my lifetime Zopa earnings leaves about £300. I’ve been in Zopa since 2006 and at times have had up to £20000 invested. So if I leave now I take a £300 profit from 11 years investment from a relatively large invested sum. Shocking! The dilemma is do I hold on in the hope that the plus loans that are repaying will be worthwhile keeping or should I bail now before my lifetime Zopa earnings go negative? It must only be a matter of time. I truly am at a loss to understand why anyone who reads these boards still invests with Zopa. I am stunned! I just do not see how returns are so skewed. i have been with z since 2005. My lifetime record is: Earnings: £39. Deposits £109. Withdrawals £92. Investment total £56. All numbers changed but correct proportions. My October MTD interest after bad debt and annualised shows an expected return of 5.5% The stats experts may know  is happening but no one else!
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zlb
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Post by zlb on Dec 4, 2017 21:54:21 GMT
These are unsecured loans. Z cannot chase through bankruptcy or IVA (that's an individual's choice, hence the name). There most severe options are registering a default, and reporting this to the credit reference agencies. They could register a CCJ but the costs are prohibitive (over £1,000) with no legal power that increases recovery. They could place a charging order over property, but this is expensive and time consuming. I suspect that Zopa chase (emails, calls, etc) and register defaults. But nothing more. Kevin. In some case it may be longer than 10 years even. I have a number that are not yet closed have paid the odd 1p or 2 every 2/3 months (Probably as smaller payments are shared across all lenders some getting something 1 month and not the next 2 say). Some are paying off capital - again slowly but they are paying, some are paying off capital and smaller interest etc. But i've written them all off from day one and put them out of my headspace. I keep a tally of yearly returns of my whole investment - usually in the april tax year end - and I have always had better than 5% for most years. I expect this year to be slightly less based on current 12 month extrapolations of returns and invested amounts (current return / no_months_so_far * 12). Its not foolproof but its an indicator none the less. (Lets hope I don't have a sudden flurry of £10 defaults in the last month though . Just logged in for my questions around this... So it comes down to Z assessment of borrower at the beginning to some extent. I'm interested in whether there is a historical pattern of people who don't care about credit reference profile, trying to borrow at times like this? I'm reassured Aju by your returns.
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aju
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Post by aju on Dec 5, 2017 0:19:52 GMT
zlb I see you have already seen my Jan-Dec returns over the last 2 years and it shows how there is a very slight downward turn this year but I am still very happy with my results so far. For those who haven't seen them its in this thread. Mrs aju is slightly under this but her account is not as mature as mine. On the credit reference profiles I'd say there are more and more people playing the system than in the past and many do not give a hoot about the profile as they are getting large sums of money and not paying anything. I would say that when my son was younger and whilst at uni and after he played the card system for many years before it finally caught up with him. I couldn't believe how much money he got from the banks. some one is ultimately paying for all that stuff and its probably across all the platforms in my view. One interesting thing I noticed in zopa's principles is that instead of 4 months of missed payment anyone on a car finance loan only has 2 months now before they are defaulted. See the zopa principles changes here. There are quite a few changes in the principles recently so could be an interesting read.
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zlb
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Post by zlb on Dec 5, 2017 20:56:55 GMT
Thanks Aju. I suppose I'm partly reassured by my own returns currently, although not accounted for over lengthy period. An insight into historical behaviours in (non) contentious borrowing and lending could indicate it's always been a factor, rather than a new one. However is/was referral to credit referencing the only recourse for banks?
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is happening but no one else!