rogerthat
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Post by rogerthat on Sept 12, 2018 14:41:34 GMT
Has the auction stopped..or a problem with that lot...? nope its off again phew !
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Sept 12, 2018 14:42:53 GMT
thanks for this - the auction house, to their credit, are being extremely honest about this one - it looks as if it was quite possibly not done by the artist but his son - all he appears to have done is taken a wax cast from the original plaster model - well I could have done that! I have traced the family whom I think own it and they clearly know a lot more than FS about art so I wonder if they are anything but stupid ! I just can't see this one making anywhere near £75K net but with modern art strange things can and do happen although I won't be bidding on it! This is some classy auction - must keep the wife away from it - but I notice there are a lot of French clocks for sale which on a very quick inspection and zero technical knowledge seem to be estimated much lower than the FS loan against , what looks to me, as similar items. Another date for my auction diary! Sold for £180k
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arby
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Post by arby on Sept 12, 2018 14:43:24 GMT
Has the auction stopped..or a problem with that lot...? I get the same. It said sold, then it's now saying 'live', but frozen.
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k6
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Post by k6 on Sept 12, 2018 14:44:13 GMT
No , All sold.
That was quite exciting watching it.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Sept 12, 2018 14:45:24 GMT
Has the auction stopped..or a problem with that lot...? nope its off again phew ! Lot 157 sold for 180k, Lot 158 only managed £750 (estimate £800)
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snowmobile
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Post by snowmobile on Sept 12, 2018 14:45:30 GMT
Has the auction stopped..or a problem with that lot...? nope its off again phew ! It did seem to stick for a long time and went from sold back to live again  I was worried for a while!
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rogerthat
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Post by rogerthat on Sept 12, 2018 14:45:48 GMT
Gawd that's made my day..its a tad early but a single malt is called for...
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coop
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Post by coop on Sept 12, 2018 14:46:40 GMT
Incredible considering how disgustingly ugly it is when measuring by any conventional metric. Looks like it's made out of earwax...
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rogerthat
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Post by rogerthat on Sept 12, 2018 14:53:48 GMT
thanks for this - the auction house, to their credit, are being extremely honest about this one - it looks as if it was quite possibly not done by the artist but his son - all he appears to have done is taken a wax cast from the original plaster model - well I could have done that! I have traced the family whom I think own it and they clearly know a lot more than FS about art so I wonder if they are anything but stupid ! I just can't see this one making anywhere near £75K net but with modern art strange things can and do happen although I won't be bidding on it! This is some classy auction - must keep the wife away from it - but I notice there are a lot of French clocks for sale which on a very quick inspection and zero technical knowledge seem to be estimated much lower than the FS loan against , what looks to me, as similar items. Another date for my auction diary! Sold for £180k Fantastic result..but I watched the auction from the beginning and I also noted that many of the 'similar' clocks failed to reach their estimates Edit..I too have zero knowledge but I seem to recall that some of the clocks at auction 'were in the style' of...and perhaps the clock collections on FS may be more specifically 'originals' ..just a thought
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on Sept 12, 2018 15:00:49 GMT
Relieved !
I said the family that owned it weren't stupid! They borrow £75K, they default and FS sell it for them so they (the family) get the massive profit after expenses.
As I said earlier the art market is a curious beast - some items fly - this one and lot 141 whilst others crash e.g. the P Hows*n painting.
Doubtless relief in Stokenchurch and dances of delight by this family.
Not being negative but I think the FS business model could benefit from retuning as it strikes me they are in 4 distinct markets which are very different, they have various levels of expertise in each and the interest rates are far too close together and do not reflect the associated risks.
As I see it we have
1) Classic Pawn items e.g. Rolexs and jewellery - FS seem to recover these well and I am happy with the interest rate offered to lenders
2) Property loans - these can be further subdivided into a) "safe loans" e.g. existing BLT property with low LTV - again happy with the interest offered b) speculative property loans e.g. Snow Dome etc i.e. empty site before any building has started or even planning obtained. I wonder if FS have enough expertise in this latter area and personally I think the rates offered to investors are far too low e.g. I would be interested in a Snow Dome/quarry punt but only at 20%. Also fraud seems pretty common in this overall area.
3) Art/Fine art market - as evidenced by this sale and the poor result for the P H painting this is a very fickle market and very prone to violent swings. A lot of loans passed in the current sale so maybe not so lucky next time! Good valuation in the VR! I am in a lot of the fine art loans with disputed ownership and I have no idea how these are going to pan out but I am not investing in any more art unless the offered rate is around 15% or more.
4) Other/exotics - e.g. the unsecured VIP loan
Again would be interested in investing in such loans but again at 20%
That is just my thoughts but this one and the cinema have been recovered so well done to FS for that.
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michaelc
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Say No To T.D.S.
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Post by michaelc on Sept 12, 2018 15:01:38 GMT
Wow. Looks like the naysayers have a little humble pie to eat. And not for the first time. I think there should be a new forum rule or at least principle since so difficult to police: Each user only allowed one speculative post for a given piece of known information. That all said, FS could have been a lot more open about this. They could have given details of which auction themselves etc. Why do we have to search for this kind of thing? Its tedious.
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Post by df on Sept 12, 2018 19:57:47 GMT
Relieved ! I said the family that owned it weren't stupid! They borrow £75K, they default and FS sell it for them so they (the family) get the massive profit after expenses. As I said earlier the art market is a curious beast - some items fly - this one and lot 141 whilst others crash e.g. the P Hows*n painting. Doubtless relief in Stokenchurch and dances of delight by this family. Not being negative but I think the FS business model could benefit from retuning as it strikes me they are in 4 distinct markets which are very different, they have various levels of expertise in each and the interest rates are far too close together and do not reflect the associated risks. As I see it we have 1) Classic Pawn items e.g. Rolexs and jewellery - FS seem to recover these well and I am happy with the interest rate offered to lenders 2) Property loans - these can be further subdivided into a) "safe loans" e.g. existing BLT property with low LTV - again happy with the interest offered b) speculative property loans e.g. Snow Dome etc i.e. empty site before any building has started or even planning obtained. I wonder if FS have enough expertise in this latter area and personally I think the rates offered to investors are far too low e.g. I would be interested in a Snow Dome/quarry punt but only at 20%. Also fraud seems pretty common in this overall area. 3) Art/Fine art market - as evidenced by this sale and the poor result for the P H painting this is a very fickle market and very prone to violent swings. A lot of loans passed in the current sale so maybe not so lucky next time! Good valuation in the VR! I am in a lot of the fine art loans with disputed ownership and I have no idea how these are going to pan out but I am not investing in any more art unless the offered rate is around 15% or more. 4) Other/exotics - e.g. the unsecured VIP loan Again would be interested in investing in such loans but again at 20% That is just my thoughts but this one and the cinema have been recovered so well done to FS for that. 5) Boats 6) Collector's items (train models, medals, maps, letters, books, musical instruments, wine etc.) 7) Cars
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on Sept 13, 2018 7:48:30 GMT
fair point but my basic point is that I think FS are basically using the standard pawn model but slotting items into it which don't really fit and carry totally different risks. True large property speculation can make lots of money but at a cost of major risk. Common joke in the property industry - how do you make a small fortune in property ; start with a large one...
I never put Mr Bambino in my FA league but I think it could easily have gone the other way - as to the military items/clocks I am not convinced these will fly...interesting to see how these and other loans do actually pan out.
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arby
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Post by arby on Sept 13, 2018 9:07:36 GMT
fair point but my basic point is that I think FS are basically using the standard pawn model but slotting items into it which don't really fit and carry totally different risks. True large property speculation can make lots of money but at a cost of major risk. Common joke in the property industry - how do you make a small fortune in property ; start with a large one... I never put Mr Bambino in my FA league but I think it could easily have gone the other way - as to the military items/clocks I am not convinced these will fly...interesting to see how these and other loans do actually pan out. I see your point. We probably can't realistically expect FS to have the skills and experience for a bespoke approach to each of these items, so maybe instead we need to flip it around and view it as being up to us to determine which of the item/approach combo meets our own risk appetite. Not ideal, but it's a simple platform with a fixed operating model which does have its advantages (and disadvantages too, as you rightly point out).
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technik
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Post by technik on Sept 13, 2018 14:13:02 GMT
fair point but my basic point is that I think FS are basically using the standard pawn model but slotting items into it which don't really fit and carry totally different risks. True large property speculation can make lots of money but at a cost of major risk. Common joke in the property industry - how do you make a small fortune in property ; start with a large one... I never put Mr Bambino in my FA league but I think it could easily have gone the other way - as to the military items/clocks I am not convinced these will fly...interesting to see how these and other loans do actually pan out. I see your point. We probably can't realistically expect FS to have the skills and experience for a bespoke approach to each of these items, so maybe instead we need to flip it around and view it as being up to us to determine which of the item/approach combo meets our own risk appetite. Not ideal, but it's a simple platform with a fixed operating model which does have its advantages (and disadvantages too, as you rightly point out). The issue for me is it can't really work both ways which is what FS seem to have achieved, with investors shouldering all the risk without always being given a clear understanding of what they are getting into. For me it is either: - arby style (and how FS started out) - fixed operating model and investors to decide on risk and invest accordingly. But that requires FS to act in a fixed manner and provide clear and thorough information at all stages. So that means disclosure of loans linked to a single borrower/organisation, reliable valuations, information throughout the loan cycle but especially where issues arise and overall meeting their obligations under their terms and conditions. Wherever you stand on those points I'm not sure how many could say they achieve them all.
This fixed approach also includes something that is not so often discussed, that according to FS all assets are taken possession of and often into their own storage (where 'jewellery and watches are stored in our own vault at a secure location, unless otherwise stated. Vehicles and art are stored at specialist 3rd party storage units' - www.fundingsecure.com/invest-with-us). If you want to see specifically how each type of loan is secured browse www.fundingsecure.com/borrow-money . Perhaps this happens most of the time, but for certain it is not 100%, with some assets that should be in storage not being. So even if they have legally been given right to an asset in the case of default, if the asset is not stored under their control it presents a higher risk. As investors we aren't informed, just have to assume all assets have equal status/risk associated with how secure they are and how able FS will be to dispose of them via a sale. So already in that, the 'fixed approach' is broken.
- adrian77 style - FS experts in various areas and manage the loan listings accordingly. Relieves some of the burden from investors and means FS needn't provide all the detailed information needed to assess and manage loans. We can do some basic DD and use the varied % available to match risk appetite. If FS need to pay for more staff or more expertise, just adjust the rate charged to borrowers and/or investors on each category accordingly. That way those internal experts with a full perspective can give credible loan assessments, not leaving it to us to crowdsource due diligence and attempt to join the dots on limited information provided in updates.
Both have advantages and disadvantages and some will prefer one or other, my point being at the moment we have bits of both and its to the overall detriment of everything and everyone involved on the investor side.
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I was worried for a while!
