ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Dec 16, 2017 22:40:54 GMT
How many of the defaulted Asset Backed Loans supported by PGs on any platform actually gotten money back from enforcing the PGs? Very little to none I would wager. It was a while ago, and I can't remember all the details, but IIRC AC managed to recover a fair amount from the PG associated with their defaulted loan to the furniture retailer. I suspect it had more to do with the borrower being honourable about their obligations than just the PG itself. Unfortunately, honourable borrowers taking loans from P2P platforms seem to be in rather short supply. Full recovery IIRC bar some fees that AC forewent. Key point here was that one of the PG was asset backed with a share portfolio and that guarentor acted honorably. The other PG wasnt asset backed and that guarantor had to be pursued legally and was finally persuaded to cough up after some wriggling There have also been several non asset backed on FC & FK where PGs have been pursued with relatively successful results
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ozboy
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Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
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Post by ozboy on Dec 17, 2017 15:55:43 GMT
That is heartening to hear. It does seem though that it is down to The Platform being willing to relentlessly pursue a PG?
PS - Just a further thought. Of the "successful" PG claw-backs, many/most seem to be baubies of various kinds, how many successful PG claw-backs has there been when there's a few hundred thou of PG asses involved, as there invariably is with property?
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Dec 17, 2017 17:07:42 GMT
That is heartening to hear. It does seem though that it is down to The Platform being willing to relentlessly pursue a PG? Yes, indeed! If a platform decides that pursuing a PG is less than likely to succeed, and/or that the cost of pursuit likely would be too high relative to the potential return, and therefore that they aren't willing to do engage the lawyers, then the PG is worthless. To the extent that the platform might have seen at the time the loan was made that the PG wouldn't be worth pursuing, then IMHO they shouldn't even mention the existence of the PG as that's more than likely to mislead potential investors.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Dec 17, 2017 17:17:33 GMT
PS - Just a further thought. Of the "successful" PG claw-backs, many/most seem to be baubies of various kinds, how many successful PG claw-backs has there been when there's a few hundred thou of personal PG asses involved, as there invariably is with property? IIRC, the share portfolio mentioned by ilmoro in the AC case was worth about £250k. It should go without saying that when large sums are involved the person behind the PG has a lot of incentive to try to avoid paying out. So they'll be unlikely to pay up quickly. With P2P lending having such a short history, ISTM that many of the larger PG pursuits likely would still be ongoing at this time.
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ozboy
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Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
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Post by ozboy on Dec 17, 2017 17:18:44 GMT
"Mislead" is a very circumspect choice of words mikes1531, most of the battle scarred on here would use more descriptive and certainly more accurate words in lieu!
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woodland
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Post by woodland on Feb 9, 2018 23:01:15 GMT
Could someone clarify again the risks of lending to a limited company?
If a property is one of ten properties in a limited company then does a FS charge get listed against the individual property or against the limited company itself? I am guessing it is the latter.
If the charge is indeed against the limited company, then the charge may be worthless if other assets are distressed / more heavily geared. At best, it is impossible to know if you have any assets to back up your loan without knowing ALL the assets & debts of that limited company. Would that be right?
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rogerthat
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Post by rogerthat on Feb 10, 2018 12:57:37 GMT
Could someone clarify again the risks of lending to a limited company? If a property is one of ten properties in a limited company then does a FS charge get listed against the individual property or against the limited company itself? I am guessing it is the latter. If the charge is indeed against the limited company, then the charge may be worthless if other assets are distressed / more heavily geared. At best, it is impossible to know if you have any assets to back up your loan without knowing ALL the assets & debts of that limited company. Would that be right? I don't know the definitive answer to your conundrum Wooders old boy but you would hope that those P2P's who manage your funds might at least have an inkling..however, my experience over the last few years has made me somewhat sceptical, that those platforms always go so deep into a companies underbelly that their DNA is exposed for all to see. Further, the T's & C's that seemingly apply to these platforms, which allows them to operate, doesn't seem to deter the plethora of new start ups from trying their hand at the lending business. Clearly, there is oodles of profit to be made for the successful ones and if the conditions of trading were so onerous, would we see so many I wonder ? The fact that their customers are prepared to pay way over the odds in interest charges compared to established banking rates makes one wonder why they choose the P2P's at all but of course, we wouldn't be discussing the pros and cons and I wouldn't be typing this waffle on this board now, if they didn't. Looking at the embers of my FC account, it suggests that the only PG worth anything at all is the triangular tea bag I drop into my mug countless times a day. Never breaks its promise and always pays dividends
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woodland
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Post by woodland on Feb 10, 2018 16:11:16 GMT
Thanks rogerthat. Judging by the lack of response to my question I guess no-one is really sure on this. My instincts have always been to avoid lending to companies for this very reason, PG or no PG. Unfortunately more & more offerings are to companies, esp from what I’ve seen on MT.
I wonder if a representative from Funding Secure would care to comment on my question above. Is the FS charge specifically held against the individual property or against the limited company? Nigel / Richard?
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Feb 10, 2018 16:35:10 GMT
Could someone clarify again the risks of lending to a limited company? If a property is one of ten properties in a limited company then does a FS charge get listed against the individual property or against the limited company itself? I am guessing it is the latter. If the charge is indeed against the limited company, then the charge may be worthless if other assets are distressed / more heavily geared. At best, it is impossible to know if you have any assets to back up your loan without knowing ALL the assets & debts of that limited company. Would that be right? In the case of a loan to company, the P2P firm charge should be clearly listed against the company, and will be visible on the Companies House website once correctly registered. For example, the FS Marlborough charge is documented against Q**S h**s ltd. I'll send you a PM. Re: your second point, the status of other assets/liabilities the company may have is not, I believe, relevant providing the 1st charge is in place. The only concern would be if the P2P firm hold a second (or below) charge against the asset, in which case the first charge holder would have recourse to proceeds from the asset first. That's my understanding anyway.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Feb 10, 2018 16:37:50 GMT
A first charge over a specific property has the same effect whether that property is owned by an individual or a limited company. The difference lies in what happens if / when the sale of that property is insufficient to repay the debt in full. An individual borrower is still personally liable for any shortfall and their other personal assets can be pursued. However the shareholders of a limited company cannot be pursued for residual sums owed by a defunct limited company, hence the normal practice of requiring a PG from a guarantor. Naturally, if the borrower / guarantor have no net realisable assets then the result is the same (ultimately bankruptcy for the borrower / guarantor, and a loss for the lenders). (Crossed with r00lish67 )
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rogerthat
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Post by rogerthat on Feb 10, 2018 19:13:18 GMT
Could someone clarify again the risks of lending to a limited company? If a property is one of ten properties in a limited company then does a FS charge get listed against the individual property or against the limited company itself? I am guessing it is the latter. If the charge is indeed against the limited company, then the charge may be worthless if other assets are distressed / more heavily geared. At best, it is impossible to know if you have any assets to back up your loan without knowing ALL the assets & debts of that limited company. Would that be right? In the case of a loan to company, the P2P firm charge should be clearly listed against the company, and will be visible on the Companies House website once correctly registered. For example, the FS Marlborough charge is documented against Q**S h**s ltd. I'll send you a PM. Re: your second point, the status of other assets/liabilities the company may have is not, I believe, relevant providing the 1st charge is in place. The only concern would be if the P2P firm hold a second (or below) charge against the asset, in which case the first charge holder would have recourse to proceeds from the asset first. That's my understanding anyway. Havent scrutinised your post forensically as I have to go out...isn't there something called an All Asset 1st charge that includes everything including personal assets ? Crossed with everything by the looks of it
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Feb 11, 2018 7:59:24 GMT
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sapphire
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Post by sapphire on Feb 11, 2018 8:23:18 GMT
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rogerthat
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Post by rogerthat on Feb 11, 2018 12:21:46 GMT
Havent scrutinised your post forensically as I have to go out...isn't there something called an All Asset 1st charge that includes everything including personal assets ? Crossed with everything by the looks of it Morning. I should say at this point that I'm just 'some guy' rather than a hard-worn company legal professional, so I stand to be corrected, but what I think you're referring to is a debenture, which is effectively a series of fixed and floating charges against a business. In our case the important point is that we usually have a first fixed charge against a property which will outrank any other claims to that particular asset. It would not be possible for some overreaching security to take priority over those proceeds in the case of default (except for liquidation expenses, which is why we are often concerned by low value property). Some further reading: www.nortonrosefulbright.com/knowledge/publications/114747/fixed-versus-floating-chargeswww.realbusinessrescue.co.uk/articles/directors-advice/what-are-fixed-and-floating-chargeswww.pitmans.com/insights/blog/what-form-of-security-might-my-company-be-asked-to-grant-a-lender/Morning Preach ...heavy reading for any day of the week let alone a Sunday but probably like yourself, the only bar I'm familiar with is the one that dispenses alcohol..and you may well be right. However, if I understand it correctly, the debenture encompasses all things business related..but does not include personal assets and that's where I come up against my own brick wall. I will give those links further study when my detox after yesterdays rugby has made more progress
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aj
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Post by aj on Feb 12, 2018 8:51:47 GMT
I have a FC loan where the company went into administration in July and the Guarantor has kept up with repayments since. Out of 5 unsecured loans in default, that's a 20% success rate for me on PGs.
I wouldn't be scared off by a PG in a loan description, but its no reassurance either.
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