ozboy
Member of DD Central
Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
Posts: 3,168 
Likes: 4,859
|
Post by ozboy on Dec 23, 2018 19:34:00 GMT
don't agree - it is one thing if FS have a (registered!) first charge on a property but another if they have a loan on a piece of art where the ownership is open to question (as to whether FS actually have other charges on the problematic art loans I don't know despite asking them)... You can never fully take account of fraud. You can however be more diligent and at least assure assets actually belong to the borrowers. Police never seem to get involved and fraud seemingly is never pursued, so there's no disincentive not to commit it? Quite the opposite, P2P would seem to offer an easy avenue to commit fraud, particularly with property, with no criminal consequences. The "Artworks" are the only loans that spring to mind, and that pursuit was generated by the FBI?
|
|
|
|
Post by waryinvestor on Dec 31, 2018 17:08:55 GMT
Surely, the Valuers should have some indemnity insurance or so - in case it goes so horribly wrong (sold @ 10%) or FS are criminally careless to appoint them as Valuers ?
|
|
adrian77
Member of DD Central
Posts: 3,920
Likes: 4,145
|
Post by adrian77 on Jan 1, 2019 9:34:01 GMT
I very much doubt it but happy to be proven incorrect - in the property world valuers have more let-out clauses than you could shake a stick at. As per my earlier post all FS had to do was what I did i.e. go to a trade site and see what these damn things were selling for - hardly rocket science...
|
|
Godanubis
Member of DD Central
Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
Posts: 2,011
Likes: 1,013
|
Post by Godanubis on Jan 2, 2019 3:26:08 GMT
I very much doubt it but happy to be proven incorrect - in the property world valuers have more let-out clauses than you could shake a stick at. As per my earlier post all FS had to do was what I did i.e. go to a trade site and see what these damn things were selling for - hardly rocket science... As previous said all non property or even property should be valued by experienced auctioneers and their lower price taken as the 100% and maximum 70% of that valuation used in amounts lent unless additional security is provided.
|
|
09dolphin
Member of DD Central
Posts: 638 
Likes: 866
|
Post by 09dolphin on Jan 2, 2019 4:31:58 GMT
I very much doubt it but happy to be proven incorrect - in the property world valuers have more let-out clauses than you could shake a stick at. As per my earlier post all FS had to do was what I did i.e. go to a trade site and see what these damn things were selling for - hardly rocket science... As previous said all non property or even property should be valued by experienced auctioneers and their lower price taken as the 100% and maximum 70% of that valuation used in amounts lent unless additional security is provided. Surely FS use experienced auctioneers and valuers rather than those with little or no experience. An reasonably accurate evaluation would seem essential if you are recommending an asset to investors and are then investing other people's money based on that valuation - otherwise we may as well play some sort of lottery or another gambling game
|
|
Godanubis
Member of DD Central
Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
Posts: 2,011
Likes: 1,013
|
Post by Godanubis on Jan 2, 2019 10:56:29 GMT
As previous said all non property or even property should be valued by experienced auctioneers and their lower price taken as the 100% and maximum 70% of that valuation used in amounts lent unless additional security is provided. Surely FS use experienced auctioneers and valuers rather than those with little or no experience. An reasonably accurate evaluation would seem essential if you are recommending an asset to investors and are then investing other people's money based on that valuation - otherwise we may as well play some sort of lottery or another gambling game
Valuations are usually on insurance value for most bling and property on expected market value. Auction valuations are considerably lower. Any repossessed property is 25-30% lower home report/valuation. In Scotland auction fees at least £3000 even on £5000 property so a lot of cheaper properties don’t sell at auction but get higher price than the previous highest bid after auction.
|
|
|
|
Post by charliebrown on Jan 2, 2019 11:05:23 GMT
It’s hard to think of any other profession where you can be inaccurate to the tune of 90% and still get paid for your “work” and not get fired. If my estimates were 90% out I’d be fired within an hour. What type of qualifications do these “professionals” need? Wouldn’t you feel embarrassed to be so bad at your job?
|
|
arby
Member of DD Central
Posts: 910
Likes: 959
|
Post by arby on Jan 2, 2019 11:32:27 GMT
Surely FS use experienced auctioneers and valuers rather than those with little or no experience. An reasonably accurate evaluation would seem essential if you are recommending an asset to investors and are then investing other people's money based on that valuation - otherwise we may as well play some sort of lottery or another gambling game
Valuations are usually on insurance value for most bling and property on expected market value. Auction valuations are considerably lower. Any repossessed property is 25-30% lower home report/valuation. In Scotland auction fees at least £3000 even on £5000 property so a lot of cheaper properties don’t sell at auction but get higher price than the previous highest bid after auction. Property insurance value is commonly on rebuild cost which can be massively different from the market value.
|
|
09dolphin
Member of DD Central
Posts: 638
Likes: 866
|
Post by 09dolphin on Jan 2, 2019 16:18:50 GMT
Surely FS use experienced auctioneers and valuers rather than those with little or no experience. An reasonably accurate evaluation would seem essential if you are recommending an asset to investors and are then investing other people's money based on that valuation - otherwise we may as well play some sort of lottery or another gambling game
Valuations are usually on insurance value for most bling and property on expected market value. Auction valuations are considerably lower. Any repossessed property is 25-30% lower home report/valuation. In Scotland auction fees at least £3000 even on £5000 property so a lot of cheaper properties don’t sell at auction but get higher price than the previous highest bid after auction. Insurance values are normally much greater than the values that can be achieved when a loan goes belly up and the item goes to auction. If FS are using insurance values as you assert they are they are being dishonest with investors and it's not surprising that distressed auction sales achieve in the order of 10 - 50% returns I would suggest that if FS are using insurance values investors need to know this so they can make a better investment decisions.
If FS are using insurance values I would suggest that any LTV above 50% is really risky for investors and perhaps a value of 20 - 30% would be more realistic.
Godanubis I really hope you are wrong otherwise, on the already defaulted loans I have and loans that are still active after over 2 years, it suggests I have no hope of even my capital back
|
|
09dolphin
Member of DD Central
Posts: 638
Likes: 866
|
Post by 09dolphin on Jan 2, 2019 16:22:33 GMT
It’s hard to think of any other profession where you can be inaccurate to the tune of 90% and still get paid for your “work” and not get fired. If my estimates were 90% out I’d be fired within an hour. What type of qualifications do these “professionals” need? Wouldn’t you feel embarrassed to be so bad at your job? Obviously Godanubis is correct and FS are using insurance or rebuild insurance quotes as the basis of their LTV. Personally I think they are morally wrong if Godanubis is correct
|
|
arby
Member of DD Central
Posts: 910
Likes: 959
|
Post by arby on Jan 2, 2019 16:57:51 GMT
It’s hard to think of any other profession where you can be inaccurate to the tune of 90% and still get paid for your “work” and not get fired. If my estimates were 90% out I’d be fired within an hour. What type of qualifications do these “professionals” need? Wouldn’t you feel embarrassed to be so bad at your job? Obviously Godanubis is correct and FS are using insurance or rebuild insurance quotes as the basis of their LTV. Personally I think they are morally wrong if Godanubis is correct
I'm not sure where this sudden talk of rebuild values has come from. I'm not aware of these ever being used for residential property loans on FS (but if they were, then yes, it would be very concerning)
|
|
Godanubis
Member of DD Central
Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
Posts: 2,011
Likes: 1,013
|
Post by Godanubis on Jan 2, 2019 22:20:54 GMT
It’s hard to think of any other profession where you can be inaccurate to the tune of 90% and still get paid for your “work” and not get fired. If my estimates were 90% out I’d be fired within an hour. What type of qualifications do these “professionals” need? Wouldn’t you feel embarrassed to be so bad at your job? Obviously Godanubis is correct and FS are using insurance or rebuild insurance quotes as the basis of their LTV. Personally I think they are morally wrong if Godanubis is correct
The Insurance values I was talking about were for bling where they are always higher, That's why you can tell the wife that £100 QVC diamond ring is worth a grand.
The property values should reflect the actual market values but for loan purposes should be the 30day distressed sale value.
FS should have on retainer a reliable builder to finish projects and FS T&C should be as for pawn (Don't pay it's ours).
That should make for more interesting platform.
I still can't see why there can't be a Provision fund set up from FS Profit. IF they are as good as they say it will never be needed.
|
|
nyneil
Member of DD Central
Posts: 349
Likes: 438
|
Post by nyneil on Jan 3, 2019 20:37:20 GMT
I've received a reply from FS re. my complaint about this loan;it reinforces my opinion that more than one valuation should have been obtained. The value of an item is the amount you can sell it for and it seems this point was overlooked as it transpires there is very little market for this type of stone.
Quote:
"Unfortunately we have no recourse to the valuer as the valuation was supplied without liability – which is typically the case with pawn items. There is no question as to the genuineness of the item. However, as we tried searching for a buyer, it became apparent that the market for a coloured stone of this size was very small which is what we believe impacted the value so greatly."
Hmmm.
|
|
ozboy
Member of DD Central
Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
Posts: 3,168
Likes: 4,859
|
Post by ozboy on Jan 3, 2019 21:03:17 GMT
I've received a reply from FS re. my complaint about this loan;it reinforces my opinion that more than one valuation should have been obtained. The value of an item is the amount you can sell it for and it seems this point was overlooked as it transpires there is very little market for this type of stone. Quote: "Unfortunately we have no recourse to the valuer as the valuation was supplied without liability – which is typically the case with pawn items. There is no question as to the genuineness of the item. However, as we tried searching for a buyer, it became apparent that the market for a coloured stone of this size was very small which is what we believe impacted the value so greatly." Hmmm. And the Valuer would have well known that. The flourishing and cosy "Valuation Industry", which hugely benefits All, except Lenders, continues unabated and unchallenged.
|
|
kielbasa
Member of DD Central
Posts: 246
Likes: 411
|
Post by kielbasa on Jan 3, 2019 21:35:22 GMT
it became apparent that the market for a [coloured stone] of this size was very small
Good phrase.
Could potentially be used for any number of things in the future e.g. [power boat], [endurance boat], ...
|
|
