agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 15, 2018 10:44:17 GMT
That is certainly my experience of having my full name and address published in a statement of administrators proposal six weeks after an administrator was appointed along with another 972 individual's in 2015 by Grant Thornton. I don't see the need for such a comprehensive list, although I would admit to a certain morbid curiosity to see how much the BH's have invested,
Publication of names, addresses and investment totals appears to invite the unwanted attentions of conmen offering to 'help'
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Post by Butch Cassidy on Jun 15, 2018 10:56:00 GMT
I'm not filled with confidence either, who would be given the progress so far, but when I see posts from COL lenders already conceding a massive hit to their capital it winds me up. COL lenders are being screwed, by the Chuckle brothers, by the FCA, by RR and now by BDO. I'd rather see posts like ozboy and other similar posts showing some fight that the outcome of this debacle will not be accepted by passive lenders but will be challenged every step of the way and errors made by those involved will be fully aired for all to see. I joined this forum only recently as i have 19K invested with Collatertal and i only just found out this place existed so i have been worrying all on my own. Its took me quite a while to read through the 132 pages and i must say a quite a bit of it goes over my head but its really good to know we have a lot of very clever people amoungst us who will certainly not let the wool be pulled over their eyes so that reassures me a lot. I tend to agree with Carters post. I cant really understand why people are presuming we are going to get nothing back. A lot of the money is allocated to the bling and we know that it is all there. As long as all the loans pay back eventually then we get our money back from those. I know people feel we are getting shafted by the FCA and BDO but someone has to sort this mess out and from what i have read about RR i would not have wanted them onboard. If we dont get a penny from this at the end of the day then who does get all the money? Who gets the bling and cars. Who gets the properties if the loans default or even pay up. I just dont understand how we can get nothing. I cant see how that is possible. It took me a while but i went through all my bank statements and added up money in and out from Colleteral and its near as damn it what i have on my spreadsheets. I also kept all of my emails and the money also tallys off against these so i also know what loans i am in and how much. This will surely help things when the time comes. I havent seen anything terribly negative as of yet so i hope the next update on the 22nd gives us all a boost. There are approx. £17.5M in loans secured against £26M assets, which as you say are virtually all accounted for, so for anyone to expect nothing back is patently ridiculous. Rather it is the timescale of any returns; as those who invested solely in bling/vehicles should expect their loans to be resolved in weeks (& arguably their money returned as was suggested under the RR proposals) but the property & development loans may take many months, even years to finally be concluded. Now under BDO's suggestion if everyone is thrown into a single creditor pot any return would obviously be seriously delayed & potentially reduced by any losses (& much inflated admin fees which accumulate at £500/hr over the extra time involved) incurred on these more complex property loans.
I believe BDO are out of their depth, too self serving & simply wrong in their interpretation regarding lenders as simple creditors not even secured creditors/preferential creditors but will await 22/6/18 before passing a definitive judgement.
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11025
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Post by 11025 on Jun 15, 2018 11:01:15 GMT
I joined this forum only recently as i have 19K invested with Collatertal and i only just found out this place existed so i have been worrying all on my own. Its took me quite a while to read through the 132 pages and i must say a quite a bit of it goes over my head but its really good to know we have a lot of very clever people amoungst us who will certainly not let the wool be pulled over their eyes so that reassures me a lot. I tend to agree with Carters post. I cant really understand why people are presuming we are going to get nothing back. A lot of the money is allocated to the bling and we know that it is all there. As long as all the loans pay back eventually then we get our money back from those. I know people feel we are getting shafted by the FCA and BDO but someone has to sort this mess out and from what i have read about RR i would not have wanted them onboard. If we dont get a penny from this at the end of the day then who does get all the money? Who gets the bling and cars. Who gets the properties if the loans default or even pay up. I just dont understand how we can get nothing. I cant see how that is possible. It took me a while but i went through all my bank statements and added up money in and out from Colleteral and its near as damn it what i have on my spreadsheets. I also kept all of my emails and the money also tallys off against these so i also know what loans i am in and how much. This will surely help things when the time comes. I havent seen anything terribly negative as of yet so i hope the next update on the 22nd gives us all a boost. There are approx. £17.5M in loans secured against £26M assets, which as you say are virtually all accounted for, so for anyone to expect nothing back is patently ridiculous. Rather it is the timescale of any returns; as those who invested solely in bling/vehicles should expect their loans to be resolved in weeks (& arguably their money returned as was suggested under the RR proposals) but the property & development loans may take many months, even years to finally be concluded. Now under BDO's suggestion if everyone is thrown into a single creditor pot any return would obviously be seriously delayed & potentially reduced by any losses (& much inflated admin fees which accumulate at £500/hr over the extra time involved) incurred on these more complex property loans.
I believe BDO are out of their depth, too self serving & simply wrong in their interpretation regarding lenders as simple creditors not even secured creditors/preferential creditors but will await 22/6/18 before passing a definitive judgement.
I agree whole heatedly , with the above security and guarantees in place , which RR and BDO have both said are correct , then the only way that a big hit would be taken is by , negligence or over indulgence and I like you don't intend to stand by whilst that happens.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 15, 2018 11:10:13 GMT
There are approx. £17.5M in loans secured against £26M assets,
Or more accurately, secured against assets alleged to be worth £26m.
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11025
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Post by 11025 on Jun 15, 2018 11:12:23 GMT
There are approx. £17.5M in loans secured against £26M assets,
Or more accurately, secured against assets alleged to be worth £26m. That risk is one that we were all aware of , the others however are quite different
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empirica
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Post by empirica on Jun 15, 2018 11:15:46 GMT
I joined this forum only recently as i have 19K invested with Collatertal and i only just found out this place existed so i have been worrying all on my own. Its took me quite a while to read through the 132 pages and i must say a quite a bit of it goes over my head but its really good to know we have a lot of very clever people amoungst us who will certainly not let the wool be pulled over their eyes so that reassures me a lot. I tend to agree with Carters post. I cant really understand why people are presuming we are going to get nothing back. A lot of the money is allocated to the bling and we know that it is all there. As long as all the loans pay back eventually then we get our money back from those. I know people feel we are getting shafted by the FCA and BDO but someone has to sort this mess out and from what i have read about RR i would not have wanted them onboard. If we dont get a penny from this at the end of the day then who does get all the money? Who gets the bling and cars. Who gets the properties if the loans default or even pay up. I just dont understand how we can get nothing. I cant see how that is possible. It took me a while but i went through all my bank statements and added up money in and out from Colleteral and its near as damn it what i have on my spreadsheets. I also kept all of my emails and the money also tallys off against these so i also know what loans i am in and how much. This will surely help things when the time comes. I havent seen anything terribly negative as of yet so i hope the next update on the 22nd gives us all a boost. There are approx. £17.5M in loans secured against £26M assets, which as you say are virtually all accounted for, so for anyone to expect nothing back is patently ridiculous. Rather it is the timescale of any returns; as those who invested solely in bling/vehicles should expect their loans to be resolved in weeks (& arguably their money returned as was suggested under the RR proposals) but the property & development loans may take many months, even years to finally be concluded. Now under BDO's suggestion if everyone is thrown into a single creditor pot any return would obviously be seriously delayed & potentially reduced by any losses (& much inflated admin fees which accumulate at £500/hr over the extra time involved) incurred on these more complex property loans.
I believe BDO are out of their depth, too self serving & simply wrong in their interpretation regarding lenders as simple creditors not even secured creditors/preferential creditors but will await 22/6/18 before passing a definitive judgement.
BDO's 'interpretation' stems from legal advice. Unless there is clear precedent _ and I'm thinking unregulated firm undertaking regulated activities rather than anything specifically P2P _ I can see this needing a court to make judgement on the matter, hence my thinking an extension may be required.
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Post by Butch Cassidy on Jun 15, 2018 11:18:20 GMT
There are approx. £17.5M in loans secured against £26M assets,
Or more accurately, secured against assets alleged to be worth £26m. True & I am no great fan of RICS valuations but even assuming an across the board 30% haircut on the valuations, which is unlikely IMO, there is still comfortable coverage.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jun 15, 2018 11:21:22 GMT
I joined this forum only recently as i have 19K invested with Collatertal and i only just found out this place existed so i have been worrying all on my own. Its took me quite a while to read through the 132 pages and i must say a quite a bit of it goes over my head but its really good to know we have a lot of very clever people amoungst us who will certainly not let the wool be pulled over their eyes so that reassures me a lot. I tend to agree with Carters post. I cant really understand why people are presuming we are going to get nothing back. A lot of the money is allocated to the bling and we know that it is all there. As long as all the loans pay back eventually then we get our money back from those. I know people feel we are getting shafted by the FCA and BDO but someone has to sort this mess out and from what i have read about RR i would not have wanted them onboard. If we dont get a penny from this at the end of the day then who does get all the money? Who gets the bling and cars. Who gets the properties if the loans default or even pay up. I just dont understand how we can get nothing. I cant see how that is possible. It took me a while but i went through all my bank statements and added up money in and out from Colleteral and its near as damn it what i have on my spreadsheets. I also kept all of my emails and the money also tallys off against these so i also know what loans i am in and how much. This will surely help things when the time comes. I havent seen anything terribly negative as of yet so i hope the next update on the 22nd gives us all a boost. There are approx. £17.5M in loans secured against £26M assets, which as you say are virtually all accounted for, so for anyone to expect nothing back is patently ridiculous. Rather it is the timescale of any returns; as those who invested solely in bling/vehicles should expect their loans to be resolved in weeks (& arguably their money returned as was suggested under the RR proposals) but the property & development loans may take many months, even years to finally be concluded. Now under BDO's suggestion if everyone is thrown into a single creditor pot any return would obviously be seriously delayed & potentially reduced by any losses (& much inflated admin fees which accumulate at £500/hr over the extra time involved) incurred on these more complex property loans.
I believe BDO are out of their depth, too self serving & simply wrong in their interpretation regarding lenders as simple creditors not even secured creditors/preferential creditors but will await 22/6/18 before passing a definitive judgement.
Interested to know who you think should be the administrator? Presumably not RR? BDO have a P2P advisory permission so are presumably not unfamiliar with the sector within the business. Why do you think that the fact that Collateral were not legally allowed to make article 36H agreements as lacking the required permissions (the key party being Collateral Agent) means that the interpretation of lenders being anything other than creditors might result? For me this is the pertinent point, not whether they have access to records showing lender commitments to individual loans which seems irrelevant if they arent valid agreements in the first place.
Other point is that alot of the jewellery & vehicles was not in the possession of Collateral so I wouldnt necessarily assume a quick resolution of these loans.
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Post by Butch Cassidy on Jun 15, 2018 11:42:39 GMT
There are approx. £17.5M in loans secured against £26M assets, which as you say are virtually all accounted for, so for anyone to expect nothing back is patently ridiculous. Rather it is the timescale of any returns; as those who invested solely in bling/vehicles should expect their loans to be resolved in weeks (& arguably their money returned as was suggested under the RR proposals) but the property & development loans may take many months, even years to finally be concluded. Now under BDO's suggestion if everyone is thrown into a single creditor pot any return would obviously be seriously delayed & potentially reduced by any losses (& much inflated admin fees which accumulate at £500/hr over the extra time involved) incurred on these more complex property loans.
I believe BDO are out of their depth, too self serving & simply wrong in their interpretation regarding lenders as simple creditors not even secured creditors/preferential creditors but will await 22/6/18 before passing a definitive judgement.
Interested to know who you think should be the administrator? Presumably not RR? BDO have a P2P advisory permission so are presumably not unfamiliar with the sector within the business. Why do you think that the fact that Collateral were not legally allowed to make article 36H agreements as lacking the required permissions (the key party being Collateral Agent) means that the interpretation of lenders being anything other than creditors might result? For me this is the pertinent point, not whether they have access to records showing lender commitments to individual loans which seems irrelevant if they arent valid agreements in the first place.
Other point is that alot of the jewellery & vehicles was not in the possession of Collateral so I wouldnt necessarily assume a quick resolution of these loans.
I don't care which firm is in charge but would choose the RR "secured lenders - return money as repaid" approach over the BDO "creditors - all wait until the end" one everytime. BDO appear to be currently ignoring the entire loan structure (individual lenders/loans against specific assets) in favour of one pot for all, coincidentally the latter allows them to be at the front of the payment queue. As for the bling/vehicle assets I believe they are all accounted for but accept that may not be entirely certain, something else which I hope is clarified in the update. As for validity of contracts I'm no lawyer but if I lender money to borrower XYZ via a broker who acts as my agent I expect that the contract should be honoured & legally enforceable whether or not the broker had the correct paperwork in place - which is still a contentious issue - as the FCA had initially authorised & monitored them throughout & if the RR report is to be believed were having ongoing dialogue right up until they finally pulled the plug in FEB. If the FCA want to argue that they & their own website are not to be trusted & lenders are not in possession of legally valid agreements then bring it on.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 15, 2018 11:48:18 GMT
BDO have a P2P advisory permission so are presumably not unfamiliar with the sector within the business.
You would assume that the FCA took account of this before BDO's appointment (no, don't laugh).
If you can prove that there is a contract between yourself and a borrower, I find it difficult to believe that <moderated>. The problem is can anyone prove what their money was actually invested in?
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TenKay
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Post by TenKay on Jun 15, 2018 12:27:03 GMT
doesn't anyone else wonder why COL decommissioned the website/data
if it was me and i had made an honest mistake re regulations, then i would be bending over backwards to assist in anyway possible in the hope that i could one day return to what appears to be a profitable business
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jj
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Jolly Jammy
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Post by jj on Jun 15, 2018 12:46:16 GMT
doesn't anyone else wonder why COL decommissioned the website/data
if it was me and i had made an honest mistake re regulations, then i would be bending over backwards to assist in anyway possible in the hope that i could one day return to what appears to be a profitable business
lack of morality.
Money is their God.
You are the sacrifice.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jun 15, 2018 12:47:19 GMT
BDO have a P2P advisory permission so are presumably not unfamiliar with the sector within the business.
You would assume that the FCA took account of this before BDO's appointment (no, don't laugh). If you can prove that there is a contract between yourself and a borrower, I find it difficult to believe that <moderated>. The problem is can anyone prove what their money was actually invested in? Two issues a) can you prove there is a contract? b) can you prove there is a legal contract? The first is an issue though possibly resolvable, the second is more problematic as one significant party (ie the signatary) had no legal authority to be a party.
The only person who can sort out the latter is probably a judge
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11025
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Post by 11025 on Jun 15, 2018 13:10:00 GMT
You would assume that the FCA took account of this before BDO's appointment (no, don't laugh). If you can prove that there is a contract between yourself and a borrower, I find it difficult to believe that <moderated>. The problem is can anyone prove what their money was actually invested in? Two issues a) can you prove there is a contract? b) can you prove there is a legal contract? The first is an issue though possibly resolvable, the second is more problematic as one significant party (ie the signatary) had no legal authority to be a party.
The only person who can sort out the latter is probably a judge
Pretty much the size of it , but there must be some credence in a "contract is still a contract" (if found)
Incidentally where does that leave the Ts & Cs we all agreed to ?
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reinvestor
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Post by reinvestor on Jun 15, 2018 13:28:01 GMT
I'm not filled with confidence either, who would be given the progress so far, but when I see posts from COL lenders already conceding a massive hit to their capital it winds me up. COL lenders are being screwed, by the Chuckle brothers, by the FCA, by RR and now by BDO. I'd rather see posts like ozboy and other similar posts showing some fight that the outcome of this debacle will not be accepted by passive lenders but will be challenged every step of the way and errors made by those involved will be fully aired for all to see. I joined this forum only recently as i have 19K invested with Collatertal and i only just found out this place existed so i have been worrying all on my own. Its took me quite a while to read through the 132 pages and i must say a quite a bit of it goes over my head but its really good to know we have a lot of very clever people amoungst us who will certainly not let the wool be pulled over their eyes so that reassures me a lot. I tend to agree with Carters post. I cant really understand why people are presuming we are going to get nothing back. A lot of the money is allocated to the bling and we know that it is all there. As long as all the loans pay back eventually then we get our money back from those. I know people feel we are getting shafted by the FCA and BDO but someone has to sort this mess out and from what i have read about RR i would not have wanted them onboard. If we dont get a penny from this at the end of the day then who does get all the money? Who gets the bling and cars. Who gets the properties if the loans default or even pay up. I just dont understand how we can get nothing. I cant see how that is possible. It took me a while but i went through all my bank statements and added up money in and out from Colleteral and its near as damn it what i have on my spreadsheets. I also kept all of my emails and the money also tallys off against these so i also know what loans i am in and how much. This will surely help things when the time comes. I havent seen anything terribly negative as of yet so i hope the next update on the 22nd gives us all a boost.
The issues you raise relate to the fact that COL were not authorised by the FCA therefore the legality of the loans they arranged is thrown into question.
If I start a money lending business and don't seek authorisation from the FCA and then I get caught out for doing so, my customers would be entitled to a full refund of the total amount that they have paid to my company and also they do not have to repay any further amounts owed. If COL were acting without interim permission this could be the position that their borrowers are in.
Ironically, if this is the case, then private individual investors won't get anything back but Limited company investors that lent to other limited companies via COL would be able to seek repayment of the amount they are owed as business to business lending is unregulated.
This is obviously a worst case scenario.
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