SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Mar 2, 2018 15:04:23 GMT
I cannot accept and will never fund projects where the valuation is 'post' something, like post planning and approval (which is a big unknown...). What I consider honest is lending against something that exists today. Today the site is worth what the borrower is paying and not a penny more than that. Once again, have you even read the loan details and VR yet? Outline planning consent has recently been granted (" Cardiff City Council Planning Committee resolved to grant outline planning permission on 7 February 2018 under reference 17/0****/*** for the demolition of existing buildings and re-development of the site for new student residential accommodation subject to conditions, none of which are considered to be onerous"), on which basis the VR assesses the current market value of the site at £10.4m, reducing to £8.75m with 90 Days Sale constraint. The purchase price will have been negotiated as an Option, subject to obtaining planning consent, which the borrower (having invested in securing the outline consent) is now taking up. Almost by definition, the Option price will be rather less than the post-planning market value, else why would the borrower have ever taken the risk of spending funds on securing the consent? They'd be paying over all of the planning gain!
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mosaic
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Post by mosaic on Mar 2, 2018 15:09:49 GMT
To my mind, it is showing a disingenuous 50% LTV as a PBL when using the notional imaginary valuation (working back from a fag packet DFL costing). The narrative states that we would be providing 100% of the purchase price and at the moment that is the best that might be realised.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Mar 2, 2018 15:20:13 GMT
Once again, have you even read the loan details and VR yet? Outline planning consent has recently been granted (" Cardiff City Council Planning Committee resolved to grant outline planning permission on 7 February 2018 under reference 17/0****/*** for the demolition of existing buildings and re-development of the site for new student residential accommodation subject to conditions, none of which are considered to be onerous"), on which basis the VR assesses the current market value of the site at £10.4m, reducing to £8.75m with 90 Days Sale constraint. The purchase price will have been negotiated as an Option, subject to obtaining planning consent, which the borrower (having invested in securing the outline consent) is now taking up. Think about your sentence: 'The purchase price will have been negotiated as an Option, subject to obtaining planning consent,' This means to me that the purchase price IS THE CURRENT MARKET VALUE (including also the consent value, as it was subject to it...). I have enough of VRs boosting up valuations 2x, 3x or more and Lendy proposing loans which have not a sufficient supporting security Yes, planning consent which has now successfully been obtained, so the borrower is taking up the pre-negotiated Option to buy the land. Which bit of that don't you get? The current market value, as evidenced by the VR, will inevitably be considerably higher than whatever Option price was negotiated before the borrower started down the road of securing planning.
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locutus
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Post by locutus on Mar 2, 2018 15:23:17 GMT
Think about your sentence: 'The purchase price will have been negotiated as an Option, subject to obtaining planning consent,' This means to me that the purchase price IS THE CURRENT MARKET VALUE (including also the consent value, as it was subject to it...). I have enough of VRs boosting up valuations 2x, 3x or more and Lendy proposing loans which have not a sufficient supporting security The purchaser agreed an option subject to obtaining planning consent. The price paid is not the current open market value but the price pre agreed with that specific purchaser under those specific conditions. On the open market, the value would likely be greater that the current purchase price and driven by the GDV of the site.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Mar 2, 2018 15:24:08 GMT
To my mind, it is showing a disingenuous 50% LTV as a PBL when using the notional imaginary valuation (working back from a fag packet DFL costing). The narrative states that we would be providing 100% of the purchase price and at the moment that is the best that might be realised. So how else would you propose to value a piece of land that has just secured a new planning consent? The purchase price will not be the open market price, it will be a pre-negotiated Option price, subject to the planning consent that the borrower has now secured. (crossed with locutus )
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locutus
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Post by locutus on Mar 2, 2018 15:36:20 GMT
thegrumbler the option price is heavily discounted from the OMV to reward the risk taken by the prospective purchaser in spending a lot of time and money in securing planning.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Mar 2, 2018 15:56:30 GMT
So how else would you propose to value a piece of land that has just secured a new planning consent? The purchase price will not be the open market price, it will be a pre-negotiated Option price, subject to the planning consent that the borrower has now secured. And, be sure, an option subject to an event, of course includes the outcome of that event in the price, whether or not you like to admit it. So the current value of that site IS what the borrower is paying and this is effectively a 100% LTV... Let's try a worked example, to see if the penny will finally drop: Imagine you own a field with no planning, worth £10k if valued purely as farmland but I think there is potential that outline planning for 10 houses MIGHT be secured if I spend £100k on architect drawings, ground investigations, ecology surveys, consultant fees and the planning fee itself. If such planning were secured, the local RICS valuer reckons each house would be worth £200k (so £2.0m GDV). He also estimates it would cost £1.0m to build them (incl. finance and contingency) so, adding developer profit at 20% of GDV (£400k), reckons the market value of the undeveloped site post-planning to be £600k, being £2.0m less £1.0m less £400k. We sit down to negotiate the price at which you are willing to agree to sell me the land if and when I manage to get planning consent (ie. an option to purchase, subject to planning). Clearly you want a lot more than £10k for it, and clearly I want a lot less than £500k, since it will cost me £100k to make the planning application and the site will only be worth £600k if I succeed. We eventually agree on £150k. You're happy, because it's a no-lose bet; if I succeed in getting outline planning, you've got 15 times more than it's worth as farmland and at zero cost to you. If I don't, you still own the field. And I'm happy, because I'll be risking my £100k planning expenses but, if I succeed, I'll be buying something worth £600k for £150k (the option price), having spent £100k upfront, and so sitting on a £350k paper profit. Is the "post-planning market value" £150k, as you argue, or £600k? If I then raise a £300k loan against the land (now that it has consent) to fund the purchase, my expenses to date and some funds to work on the reserved matters (detailed planning), is that 50% LTV or "twice what the land is worth"?!
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rocky1
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Post by rocky1 on Mar 2, 2018 16:58:53 GMT
completely baffled me steveT but obviously youknow what you are talking about as you have calmed down a few members for a while.any way we do not even need to think about this one for a while with pipeline loans coming fast and furious. we cant even fund 500k loans at the moment never mind 5m.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Mar 13, 2018 22:46:41 GMT
Going live tomorrow (Wed)
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Jeepers
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Post by Jeepers on Mar 13, 2018 23:50:22 GMT
I share the sentiment of others and won't be investing anything new either.
I worry that as Lendy makes their money at the beginning, people need to fund new loans to keep the platform from heading the same way as COL.
The only way to break the chain is with some big repayments and if Lendy could be honest and concise in their updates instead of the usual BS !
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brianlom1
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He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
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Post by brianlom1 on Mar 13, 2018 23:52:57 GMT
Not a penny more for Lendy until some of the overdue loans have been repaid in full
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southport
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Post by southport on Mar 14, 2018 0:36:19 GMT
Hmmm, 2% cashback has me very interested. Think I'll have a small chunk in this one.
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Jeepers
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Post by Jeepers on Mar 14, 2018 0:56:53 GMT
I've seen it all now... £10.4m for a plot of land less than an acre ?
But it's a RICS surveyor so what could possibly go wrong ?
Wouldn't take it with 50% cashback as I doubt it would compensate my loss !
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Liz
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Post by Liz on Mar 14, 2018 1:20:52 GMT
I've seen it all now... £10.4m for a plot of land less than an acre ? But it's a RICS surveyor so what could possibly go wrong ? Wouldn't take it with 50% cashback as I doubt it would compensate my loss ! So true. We've seen loans with a LTV lower than this go very wrong.
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jcb208
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Post by jcb208 on Mar 14, 2018 6:18:23 GMT
Not even looked at the valuation, I will be passing on this one until I see repayments from this borrower and full repayment of DFL005
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