ianj
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Post by ianj on Apr 4, 2018 13:06:23 GMT
There will likely be lots of changes in the new T&C's, but the new section on Confidentiality is note worthy For comparison the clauses relating to confidentiality on other platforms are summarised in this thread on the General Discussion board. The confidentiality clause is the nail in the coffin for me. What dark secrets do MT want to hide about their borrowers? Being able find info on these forum's about the borrow's background and the asset borrowed against is great DD. What information do MoneyThing want their investors to rely on when deciding whether to invest in a loan? There are things that Moneything's DD miss. Crowd sourced DD is an absolute must. Given the highlighted section of the clause, I'm interested in how you believe the current level of posted information and discussion will be negatively impacted, unless the platform choses to withhold the borrower's name of course.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 13:07:03 GMT
The confidentiality clause is the nail in the coffin for me. What dark secrets do MT want to hide about their borrowers? Being able find info on these forum's about the borrow's background and the asset borrowed against is great DD. What information do MoneyThing want their investors to rely on when deciding whether to invest in a loan? There are things that Moneything's DD miss. Crowd sourced DD is an absolute must. I can see the borrowers perspective on this as well. An honest borrower with 'nothing to hide' may still perfectly reasonably object to a horde of lenders plastering his/her personal details all over public forums. This is a nightmare for things like fraud, identity theft and the like.
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blueninja
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Post by blueninja on Apr 4, 2018 13:25:20 GMT
The confidentiality clause is the nail in the coffin for me. What dark secrets do MT want to hide about their borrowers? Being able find info on these forum's about the borrow's background and the asset borrowed against is great DD. What information do MoneyThing want their investors to rely on when deciding whether to invest in a loan? There are things that Moneything's DD miss. Crowd sourced DD is an absolute must. Given the highlighted section of the clause, I'm interested in how you believe the current level of posted information and discussion will be negatively impacted, unless the platform choses to withhold the borrower's name of course. It certainly needs clarifying with MT. Are we allowed to discuss loans as long as lenders names not revealed as currently happens on the public forums? What about on private forums (eg DD Central). It hard not to share DD without revealing info that identifies the borrower.
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archie
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Post by archie on Apr 4, 2018 13:32:29 GMT
Given the highlighted section of the clause, I'm interested in how you believe the current level of posted information and discussion will be negatively impacted, unless the platform choses to withhold the borrower's name of course. It certainly needs clarifying with MT. Are we allowed to discuss loans as long as lenders names not revealed as currently happens on the public forums? What about on private forums (eg DD Central). It hard not to share DD without revealing info that identifies the borrower. See answer 4 in 'Support' under 'General Updates'.
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oik
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Post by oik on Apr 4, 2018 13:38:06 GMT
The confidentiality clause is the nail in the coffin for me. What dark secrets do MT want to hide about their borrowers? Being able find info on these forum's about the borrow's background and the asset borrowed against is great DD. What information do MoneyThing want their investors to rely on when deciding whether to invest in a loan? There are things that Moneything's DD miss. Crowd sourced DD is an absolute must. I'd suggest there would be little need for shared DD if MT themselves could be relied upon to do reliable DD and to bring to the attention of lenders everything they needed to make informed decisions. Unfortunately, they've too often fallen short. We've now had a number of MT borrowers who were only discovered to have criminal records or to be the subjects of allegations of fraud following the effort of members here. It was only after MT's now multiple defaulter applied for a further loan on another platform that we learned of an incidence of arson to an earlier stalled development. Often there appears to be unrevealed linkage between borrowers and companies. Either MT failed to discover these histories, or they knew and failed to tell us. With the very limited information MT provides to lenders it would be incredibly time consuming, if not impossible, for most lenders to independently find the information they need. So MT have a choice: to carry out effective DD and make relevent facts known to lenders, as do the best platforms, or they have to accept that lenders will need to do their own DD in whatever way they can. We can't simply dole out our money while being blindfolded by the platform from reasonably assessing the risks.
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ianj
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Post by ianj on Apr 4, 2018 13:38:42 GMT
Given the highlighted section of the clause, I'm interested in how you believe the current level of posted information and discussion will be negatively impacted, unless the platform choses to withhold the borrower's name of course. It certainly needs clarifying with MT. Are we allowed to discuss loans as long as lenders names not revealed as currently happens on the public forums? What about on private forums (eg DD Central). It hard not to share DD without revealing info that identifies the borrower. Have to disagree there. If you're a MT investor you have access the borrower's identity. Example: rather than a direct link to a borrower's Company House entry being made available, instructing someone to google "https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/" and enter "borrowers name" will produce the same results. The borrowers identity is not revealed in the post, but if you know it you'll be able to access all the information at CH. If you didn't know their identity to start with, you're none the wiser.
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nyneil
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Post by nyneil on Apr 4, 2018 14:03:27 GMT
IMHO the confidentially aspect of P2P is complex with differing requirements for borrowers and lenders.
It's totally reasonable for lenders to know who they are lending to and to share and discuss relevant information which might affect the security of the loan. The issue arises when the information becomes publicly available. Anyone can join a forum and see the 'confidential' information, without having any intention of taking part in the (or any) loan; it is also easy for anyone to find information discussed on the forum just from Google. Surely borrowers also have a right (legal? or ethical) for their financial dealings to remain confidential, especially if they are commercially sensitive.
I'm still considering my thoughts on the revised T&C, but expect to see most / all platforms update their T&C, as the industry and experience develops.
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rgog
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Post by rgog on Apr 4, 2018 14:27:19 GMT
I have to say that in contract law if both parties accept it, then a retrospective change will be effective, and I am not at all happy that this should be the case with my loan agreements (incidentally as the contracts are I believe between us and the borrower, then the agreement to vary the terms should also be in writing signed/agreed by the parties to the contract?). The data security issue is very concerning, we are left wide open to any dodgy and insecure locale being used in the future with no comeback. As has been said up thread some are nowhere near as secure as they should be. Not seen yet how effective and timely MT will be in dealing with defaulted loans, but if they prove to be inadequate these terms preclude us if we should so wish from any further action and so potentially leaves us hung out to dry. 10.18. I really don't like this "This includes the right to make amendments to the Loan Agreements with the agreement of the Borrower and without consulting with or obtaining consent from you or the other Lender Members. Such amendments could include reducing the amount of principal of the Loans, reducing the interest rate on the Loans"While I accept there are certain day to day loan management that needs to be transferred in to their hands as our agents, variation to the fundamental terms of the contract should only be carried out with our concurrence once we have been given all the relevant facts and options. Paul123 comment above regarding probate etc, I agree. I am not sure SophieThing post in reply is satisfactory, leaving it to their discretion to be flexible (despite the terms now inserted into the contract) and accommodate the bereaved? Generally leaving it to someones discretion is not a good idea in contract law.
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blueninja
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Post by blueninja on Apr 4, 2018 14:44:05 GMT
It certainly needs clarifying with MT. Are we allowed to discuss loans as long as lenders names not revealed as currently happens on the public forums? What about on private forums (eg DD Central). It hard not to share DD without revealing info that identifies the borrower. Have to disagree there. If you're a MT investor you have access the borrower's identity. Example: rather than a direct link to a borrower's Company House entry being made available, instructing someone to google "https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/" and enter "borrowers name" will produce the same results. The borrowers identity is not revealed in the post, but if you know it you'll be able to access all the information at CH. If you didn't know their identity to start with, you're none the wiser. ok I see what you mean. I little extra work by the poster is needed to maintain confidentiality. Also gives the reader a little more work, but as long as there is no loss of transparency I am happy. :-)
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ianj
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Post by ianj on Apr 4, 2018 14:50:48 GMT
Have to disagree there. If you're a MT investor you have access the borrower's identity. Example: rather than a direct link to a borrower's Company House entry being made available, instructing someone to google "https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/" and enter "borrowers name" will produce the same results. The borrowers identity is not revealed in the post, but if you know it you'll be able to access all the information at CH. If you didn't know their identity to start with, you're none the wiser. ok I see what you mean. I little extra work by the poster is needed to maintain confidentiality. Also gives the reader a little more work, but as long as there is no loss of transparency I am happy. :-) As further comfort, the latest Support entry Answers to questions regarding changes to T&C’s contains the following.....
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blueninja
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Post by blueninja on Apr 4, 2018 14:56:28 GMT
ok I see what you mean. I little extra work by the poster is needed to maintain confidentiality. Also gives the reader a little more work, but as long as there is no loss of transparency I am happy. :-) As further comfort, the latest Support entry Answers to questions regarding changes to T&C’s contains the following..... Clause 5. is also quite relevant too.
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ianj
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Post by ianj on Apr 4, 2018 15:21:01 GMT
As further comfort, the latest Support entry Answers to questions regarding changes to T&C’s contains the following..... Clause 5. is also quite relevant too. Being debarred from official access to DDC it would be impolitic say anything other. Inability to comment is not necessarily the same as not being aware!
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Post by mrclondon on Apr 4, 2018 15:37:10 GMT
Clause 5. is also quite relevant too. Being debarred from official access to DDC it would be impolitic say anything other. Inability to comment is not necessarily the same as not being aware! One of the difficulties of giving platform reps access to DDC is that no platform would want their competitors to see full details of their loanbooks (which is further complicated by many borrowers having loans on multiple p2p platforms)
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ozboy
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Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
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Post by ozboy on Apr 4, 2018 15:58:22 GMT
Haven't read through the new Ts & Cs, couldn't be backsided, cos Ima leavin'.
I would bet London to a Brick however that there's no new Clause along the lines of :-
We will require as Standard that all Valuations provide a 90 Day Distressed Sale Valuation and if any Valuer, RICS Professional or otherwise, is subsequently proven to be incompetently inaccurate we will take legal action and vigorously pursue compensation on behalf of Lenders.
Won't happen of course, many Platforms and Borrowers and Valuers are all in bed together, enjoying a very cosy threesome.
With Lenders the cuckolded husband.
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Apr 4, 2018 16:05:11 GMT
It won't be long now before (all) platforms are going to have to dance to the lenders' tunes if platforms are going to continue expecting to receive lenders' money.
That is, of course, if directors actually want their business to continue.
Maybe p2pexit is now the prudent way forward.
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