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Post by samford71 on May 22, 2018 9:33:46 GMT
In late 2013 when I first came to this forum, I talked about a 7% return, net of defaults, over the business cycle. That was based on what other "fixed income credit" products, such as HY corporate bonds, ABS, secured loan portfolios etc, have delivered over the past 30-50 years. I don't see a major reason to modify that view. I accept, however, that I could be wrong by 200bp on either side. Moreover, that is a cycle average and I would expect significant volatility in loan cohort returns, peak to trough.
The issue to some degree is that 2013/16 was probably a very good period to be a lender. First, it was mid-economic cycle, where credit tends to perform well since leverage has yet to build up and risk-free rates are low. Second, most P2P platforms were new and thus their loan portfolios had yet to accumulate the non-performing loans that eventually always drag returns down. Third, early on P2P platforms could originate their first loans from niches where there were good quality borrowers whose had valid reasons for paying very high yields. Finally, the natural growth of P2P lending meant there were always more buyers than sellers on platforms, so it was easy to recycle short-dated loans into longer-dated loans and avoid/reduce the default risk (i.e you could pick pennies up in front of the steamroller in the sure knowledge you could jump out of the way before it squashed you). The end result was that it was possible to generate double digit returns from double digit yields fairly easily. I was generating 17% doing underwriting on AC, 18% flipping loans on FC, 12%+ on a few other platforms like TC, SS etc.
The problem is that all the above conditions are far less valid today. We are clearly much closer to the end of the cycle than the middle and default rates are rising. In attempting to scale origination volumes, some platforms have turned to sectors like speculative propery development, ratcheting up the risk. Others have instead moved to lower yielding products. Most platforms have some hefty NPLs now on the books which had caused liquidity to dry up on some platforms, meaning the strategy of "passing the (exploding) parcel" doesn't work. It's also important to consider that if returns do turn out to be say 7% over the cycle, then if you generate say 10-12% from a buy-and-hold approach in the good years then by construction you are going to face a period where returns are 2-4%. In fact a period of negative returns would be very likely in the downturn.
I'm not sure I see a reason why SS should be different and buck the trend. It was very easy to extract 12%+ in 2014-16 (and even 17) but the corollary is likely lower returns going forward. Those high returns need to be paid for by someone as the underlying loans were very risky, with high default rates and weak recovery prospects. SS was founded by people with no background in the product they were selling so many mistakes were made. The model tended to a "pump and dump" strategy which suited them to grow volumes. At this point, SS is finally hiring some of the staff it needed in say 2015 which bodes much better. Nonetheless, it has a legacy portfolio of NPLs to deal with plus the fact it still hasn't got full FCA authorization, which has to a major concern given how easy it is to get authorization.
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on May 22, 2018 9:49:42 GMT
But people think they have a right to high returns for no risk to capital for some reason.
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Post by p2plender on May 22, 2018 12:51:36 GMT
On 22/05/2019 we shall visit this thread to save much arguing (in the mean time)..
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zlb
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Post by zlb on May 23, 2018 20:33:28 GMT
There was a similar thread. I thought that Ly scoped for interest in a 6% bond. Does anyone else remember that scoping exercise?
I wonder how far off the real % earnings on the current self select on L, will be from any 'low risk' bond that they offer. Would the offer on bond be an amount Ly think is achievable, plus their earnings?
I'm not adding anything up at present as I have too much in defaults/claims.
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upland
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Post by upland on Jun 23, 2018 8:35:02 GMT
As requested by Ace on another thread I made between 5 and 7% with FC for the last 5 years. AC is just over 7% ave over 2-3 years. LI has been just sub 7% for 2 years and RS is about 5% for 5 years or so. Its worth saying that I worry more about what I can lose that whether I make a lot. I have others but in smaller amounts. I avoid 2nd charges and try to be as diverse as possible on a site. My returns on FS have been like the returns from Z but with a lot more effort. I dont feel that my Ly returns are realistic as all I have done is to end up with a smallish core of difficult loans. I move away from sites that I dont like and towards sites that I do better at. I did not have too much with Collateral due to my liking for diversity and I set my limits low with them as they were new. I would not say that I was that experienced and my DD is not very good , certainly compared to many on this forum.
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mjc
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Post by mjc on Jun 23, 2018 12:48:00 GMT
As requested by Ace on another thread I made between 5 and 7% with FC for the last 5 years. AC is just over 7% ave over 2-3 years. LI has been just sub 7% for 2 years and RS is about 5% for 5 years or so. Its worth saying that I worry more about what I can lose that whether I make a lot. I have others but in smaller amounts. I avoid 2nd charges and try to be as diverse as possible on a site. My returns on FS have been like the returns from Z but with a lot more effort. I dont feel that my Ly returns are realistic as all I have done is to end up with a smallish core of difficult loans. I move away from sites that I dont like and towards sites that I do better at. I did not have too much with Collateral due to my liking for diversity and I set my limits low with them as they were new. I would not say that I was that experienced and my DD is not very good , certainly compared to many on this forum. Personally I would tend to stay clear of 5% or less with no FSCS guarantee, I’d rather 1.4% Tax free instant access, security, and ease of use ie Nationwide BS etc. am I right in thinking if NOT in an ISA wrapper, total losses can be offset against gains on the other loans, but in an isa losses are absolute loss? Either way I’d rather have an advertised 7% than an indicated 13% that in all honesty is perhaps about 7%, and might be redeemable in 6 months . . . . . or several years! And a shed load of time in managing. I’m tending towards Autoinvest, just like to know the honest default loss rates. If only they’d say what they do, and do what they say. Chris
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upland
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Post by upland on Jun 24, 2018 5:20:23 GMT
Personally I would tend to stay clear of 5% or less with no FSCS guarantee, I’d rather 1.4% Tax free instant access, security, and ease of use ie Nationwide BS etc. am I right in thinking if NOT in an ISA wrapper, total losses can be offset against gains on the other loans, but in an isa losses are absolute loss? Either way I’d rather have an advertised 7% than an indicated 13% that in all honesty is perhaps about 7%, and might be redeemable in 6 months . . . . . or several years! And a shed load of time in managing. I’m tending towards Autoinvest, just like to know the honest default loss rates. If only they’d say what they do, and do what they say. Chris 5% - true , I have a few somewhat smaller holdings like that but you do need an incentive. I am not sure about the ISA wrapper , perhaps others could advise but it sounds likely. All of my p2p platforms are unwrapped. Indeed I think that too 7% in the hand is worth 13% in the marketing mans dreams. Its too risky to have buckets of money with some of these promises and then you have the time taken to manage them for a small return - its been fun but the business case for many of them is dwindling for me. Honest and accurate information is very desirable.
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neal
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Post by neal on Jun 29, 2018 10:18:56 GMT
My real interest rate seems to be falling as the loans I have are increasingly not being paid on maturity. When I started investing it was 12% as nothing was in default and back then we were even paid interest for the first 180 days of said loan being in default. IMHO Lendy is still being paid interest on defaulted loans or they would be more willing and likely to do something about it. A good few months ago I stopped throwing good money after bad when my IA loans hit 20% of my investments and started withdrawing my interest to put in other platforms. A month or two ago my IA loans hit 33% on my investments so real interest at about 8% Today I have just shy of 50% loans on IA putting the interest actually received at about 6% IMHO Lendy need to pull there finger out and get some of these big IA loans repaid, which I hope will improve investor confidence in the platform and I for one can go back to working part time
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GeorgeT
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Post by GeorgeT on Jun 30, 2018 21:22:53 GMT
Thread not designed to be a dig or a downer on investment, but just curious as to what people's estimates are. Appreciate longer term investors may have an actual figure but I feel this may have been skewed by the old rules, and that interest was always paid whether on account or not. For an investor diversifying an equal amount into every loan going forward I think the average gross return will be around 11%. But there are two threats to return, one being the fact that a late loan pays no interest and the second being defaults losing all accrued interest and capital. The very bad loans have a triple whammy effect, because they take a huge amount of time to sort out (not earning any interest), a drawn out loan decreases the chances of the accrued interest being paid (ie on a £5m loan late by 2 years, default is easier), and a capital loss on finalisation. Even allowing for the rate of non-performing loans to go down a little in future IMO an investor taking all the loans ends up with an effective rate less than that of the 5-year market in Ratesetter. I would be amazed if the average gross return going forward was anywhere like 11%. I would half that on a good day. In the old days of course, circa 2014-2016, you could get close to 12% overall because it was a game and DD was irrelevant in that if you had your strategy and tactics right you were protected from defaults and the ridiculous secondary market MO and bots operating thereon ( allegedly )ensured total liquidity. The golden days are well and truly history and now it is a seriously high risk game and not for the faint hearted or casual investor/saver. I class myself in the latter category compared with many and therefore when my final two indulgences in Exeter are resolved I will calculate my overall return from the platform which will be double figure interest even on our worst case scenario and I am very happy with that indeed. Of course my satisfaction is dampened considerably by my involvement in another platform that is now defunct. This taught me that all the strategy and tactical awareness in the world cannot provide a satisfactory level of protection in the P2P world unless you are seriously rich and enjoy the helter skelter ride of high risk. If nothing else I think what has happened generally over the past year has served to provide the reminder that was missing that this is a high risk investment scheme and not a safe place for life savings. To an extent I think platforms were guilty of some level of misleading in that they stressed the asset-backed nature of the investments and banged on about a maximum of 70% LTV which created the impression in many minds that money was safe. The DFL loans were always pretty finger in the air types of valuation exercises and overly reliant on competent borrowers / developers and always should have paid higher rates than loans secured on existing, traditional PBL type property assets.
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Post by scookey on Jul 2, 2018 20:35:10 GMT
Well I got my interest today about 56 quid on 15+k invested - I make that about 4.4% overall or is my maths up the creek too ?
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brianlom1
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Post by brianlom1 on Jul 2, 2018 20:48:11 GMT
Well I got my interest today about 56 quid on 15+k invested - I make that about 4.4% overall or is my maths up the creek too ? Sounds about right, I'm getting between 3-4%, not a great return when you consider that capital is at risk etc
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Post by scookey on Jul 2, 2018 20:56:13 GMT
Thanks - calculated it a few months ago & was getting 5.8% & I thought OMG! - this was around the time they were phoning investors - told them if it gets much worse I'll move it all elsewhere where I can get 7% no worries, no reductions - but I just keep on hoping for an improvement as this was my first attempt at branching out from the high street - if it gets to 4% though I'm definitely going to start selling - honest I am
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jul 2, 2018 21:14:53 GMT
Thanks - calculated it a few months ago & was getting 5.8% & I thought OMG! - this was around the time they were phoning investors - told them if it gets much worse I'll move it all elsewhere where I can get 7% no worries, no reductions - but I just keep on hoping for an improvement as this was my first attempt at branching out from the high street - if it gets to 4% though I'm definitely going to start selling - honest I am Unfortunatley if you getting those sort of returns that suggests most of your loans are in arrears and unsellable
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Post by df on Jul 2, 2018 21:32:45 GMT
Well I got my interest today about 56 quid on 15+k invested - I make that about 4.4% overall or is my maths up the creek too ? Sounds about right, I'm getting between 3-4%, not a great return when you consider that capital is at risk etc I'm doing much better, 6.7% this time, but this figure is on constant decline since about a year ago.
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Post by gullible on Jul 3, 2018 4:14:08 GMT
My live loan parts on Ly are £3613.62 and I received £9.73 interest this month !
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