p2pete
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Post by p2pete on Jun 9, 2018 10:20:50 GMT
Is FC's recovery process any good? I don't have much experience of it yet but looking at Loan 45979 for example, the borrower made one payment on 14th December 2017 and disappeared. There are no accounts for 17/18 at companies house. The updates from FC show that 6 months after the last repayment, they haven't even successfully contacted the borrower eg:
19th Feb 2018 "The borrower has been unresponsive despite us trying to contact them using various methods".
15th Mar 2018 "We have repeatedly made efforts to contact the borrower and have the loan brought up to date but they have remained unresponsive".
11th May 2018 "We are in the processing of trying to establish contact with the guarantor"
When asked why they aren't doing anything, FC's responce was "Our approach to collections and recoveries means working positively with borrowers, which we find provides the highest possible returns for investors."
Is this normal or do FC have a decent record with recoveries?
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Post by Butch Cassidy on Jun 9, 2018 10:33:19 GMT
In my opinion it's the very best in the P2P world, with only AC coming close, they explore every avenue of recovery thoroughly & exhaustively & if there are monies available they will find & recover them. As with any recovery the results will depend on whether there is anything left to recover & this often takes some time but I am not in any doubt that they explore every possibility before closing a case. It is one of the few platforms where a PG (& often just the PG) results in decent recoveries.
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Post by samford71 on Jun 9, 2018 13:06:09 GMT
p2pete . FC publishes data on lifetime default rates and annualized losses given default, rather than recovery rates by loan cohort. Nonetheless, these loan statistics do allow you infer recovery rates, albeit this requires some assumptions regarding the weighted duration of the portfolio and the term structure of loan default probabilites. It's also worth mentioning that recoveries take a long time, so at this point it's hard to say anything concrete about the 2016-18 loan cohorts. For the 2011-15 loan cohorts however, we can now be fairly confident that the data published allows us to infer final recovery rates. The average recovery rate over that period is in the region of 35%. This masks fairly wide range of volatility since recovery rates have varied from lows of <20% (the 1H15 cohort) to 45%+ (2H12 cohort). Given these loan books were full of the unsecured debt of SMEs (really just small or even micro enterprises) this is a very good result. It compares well with the recovery statistics of other secured SME debt platforms such as TC which has a recovery rate of 45-50%. Of course, the value of your recovery is suppressed when considered in PV terms i.e. if a recovery takes three years then the effective opportunity cost in lost interest may be 25-30%, so a recovery of 35% is worth only say 27% at the point of default. If I were to make a guess for final 2016 recovery rates I would say they would be lower than this average, perhaps 20-25%, while early 2017 loans seem to be doing better with recoveries back toward 35-40%. Generally, one would assume that, given the maturity of the economic cycle, recovery rates would follow the normal pattern and fall somewhat as we move into the next downturn. That, however, would apply to all platforms, not just FC. Edit: FC is essentially a "fire and forget" black box product at this point. Your net returns are simply a function of yield, the probability of default and recovery rate. Their default rates are much lower than many higher yielding secured property platforms which compensates for the lower recovery values. Communications, updates etc will not impact either variable, and in my view FC is wasting their time providing any updates at all. This is a numbers game; comms is seriously overated by posters on this forum.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Jun 9, 2018 13:43:59 GMT
My oldest FC account (opened mid 2011) has Bad Debt of £15,582 and Recoveries of £3,179 (20.4%)
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min
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Post by min on Jun 9, 2018 15:15:19 GMT
My oldest FC account (opened mid 2011) has Bad Debt of £15,582 and Recoveries of £3,179 (20.4%) My F.C. account, same age, has losses of £4,415 and recoveries of £1,723. A 39.03% rate. Managed to sell out all property about 2 years ago.
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coogaruk
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Post by coogaruk on Jun 9, 2018 17:58:19 GMT
£309 recovered from £1478 for me, a tad below 21%
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Post by df on Jun 9, 2018 19:14:16 GMT
My FC account is less than 2 years old - 2.35% of recoveries so far.
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markr
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Post by markr on Jun 9, 2018 19:18:53 GMT
When I was only making new investments in property and selling before the end (effectively a way of avoiding defaults), my recoveries got up to 43% on an increasing trend that I'm sure would have reached FCs figure of 48%. Since resuming SME lending, my recoveries have fallen again to 22%.
This is to be expected, as it reflects the fact that defaults happen quickly, but recoveries happen glacially slowly. A new account that sees its first default has a recovery rate of 0%, this will climb over about 3 years to reach a steady-state in the low 20s where it will remain until the investor stops re-investing returned funds. It will then climb again to reach the FC 48% estimate about 3 years after the last default. Assuming everything else remains constant, of course.
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Post by valerieb on Jun 10, 2018 7:44:46 GMT
My account is nearly 6 years' old and currently recoveries stand at 43%. I've been pleased with FC's persistence in the pursuit of recoveries, although not so impressed by their handling of the short term London property loan - by far my largest loss to date.
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ptr120
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Post by ptr120 on Jun 10, 2018 9:22:51 GMT
Having discussed recoveries with a former borrower I have a very different view of the FC recovery process to Butch Cassidy . In the case that I know of, the borrower fell in to minor arrears, but had a plan to catch up. FC repeatedly returned DD payments erroneously. Collections staff repeatedly failed to call him back as requested. The borrower asked for the DD to be switched to their personal bank account in the hope that the process would be easier. No new DD was set up, causing the business account to go overdrawn (and charges to be incurred). At all points in the process it was the borrower chasing, and not FC. Now imagine that you are a borrower that is a bit less willing to pay back your dues. It isn't hard to understand why bad debts are worse than they should be. I think that FC just has too many small loans to manage than it can cope with and it is only when loans are significantly (6 months+) overdue that they even think about turning the thumb screws. My recoveries are in low single figure %age. I have one loan that hasn't paid a penny for more than 18 months now, and another that hasn't paid for 3 months even though we were told a payment plan had been agreed.
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Post by Butch Cassidy on Jun 10, 2018 9:56:06 GMT
Having discussed recoveries with a former borrower I have a very different view of the FC recovery process to Butch Cassidy . In the case that I know of, the borrower fell in to minor arrears, but had a plan to catch up. FC repeatedly returned DD payments erroneously. Collections staff repeatedly failed to call him back as requested. The borrower asked for the DD to be switched to their personal bank account in the hope that the process would be easier. No new DD was set up, causing the business account to go overdrawn (and charges to be incurred). At all points in the process it was the borrower chasing, and not FC. Now imagine that you are a borrower that is a bit less willing to pay back your dues. It isn't hard to understand why bad debts are worse than they should be. I think that FC just has too many small loans to manage than it can cope with and it is only when loans are significantly (6 months+) overdue that they even think about turning the thumb screws. My recoveries are in low single figure %age. I have one loan that hasn't paid a penny for more than 18 months now, and another that hasn't paid for 3 months even though we were told a payment plan had been agreed. That's a very interesting insight into the process from the borrowers side & might become a more frequent event as the loanbook balloons in size; I can only relate my own experience as a SME loan only lender (never invested in property loans but I understand some were "problematic"). My seasoned account had recovery rates in the low 40%, which mirrors the experience of valerieb above, I made a large lending increase just before manual lending was removed last Autumn & defaults over those last 9 months have increased significantly, so the rate is now mid 20% but still too early to judge performance on these as recoveries are only just starting. Whether it climbs back to where it was I somewhat doubt as the quality of the loans has declined as the DD bar has been lowered in pursuit of volume growth (in an attempt to drive up the value of a future IPO).
Recovery result rates are obviously both a function of the process (which I still believe is very good) & the quality of the borrowers which I am in no doubt has declined over the years. When I compare FC to the recovery processes across similar SME lending platforms such as Rebs, LC, Abl, AC there is no comparison in either established procedures nor results, only AC comes anywhere close.
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dorset
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Post by dorset on Jun 11, 2018 8:23:03 GMT
Like Butch I loaded up my loan book just before the Sept 2017 changes which has shot up my defaults - 47 in 2018 which is double the default rate I experienced in 2015 to 2017.
As a result my lifetime recovery rate has now dropped to 33.61% but should improve at some point as I am now running out all of my FC loans as they repay. I've decided to stay clear of the new FC lending model.
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rogerthat
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Post by rogerthat on Jun 11, 2018 9:17:02 GMT
Like Butch I loaded up my loan book just before the Sept 2017 changes which has shot up my defaults - 47 in 2018 which is double the default rate I experienced in 2015 to 2017. As a result my lifetime recovery rate has now dropped to 33.61% but should improve at some point as I am now running out all of my FC loans as they repay. I've decided to stay clear of the new FC lending model.Just peeking over the fence in a quiet moment elsewhere but I think the 'lending' model you refer to is what drove away quite a few of the established lenders prior to the Sept 17 change . Relinquishing control of exactly who your money is being lent to seems to me like trying to drive a car in thick fog with welders goggles on. Donating rather than lending seems a more accurate description of FC's new lending model.
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Post by Butch Cassidy on Jun 11, 2018 14:20:46 GMT
thegrumbler you appear to be confusing recovery procedures with poor quality DD/borrowers, genuine SME business failure will often result in zero recovery as the owners/borrowers have already throw everything they own at keeping the business afloat & frequently P2P borrowing represents the last chance saloon for survival. FC property is a very different issue & requires a significantly different skill set to operate successfully, which is why I avoided their property based loans.
20-40% recovery rates are pretty good in these circumstances & if you are unhappy with that I suggest you check out LC or Rebs to see a really poor recovery record for comparison.
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Post by carol167 on Jun 12, 2018 8:03:20 GMT
My recoveries are running at 39.27% currently. Highest was 41.73% but it's declined slightly as I dribbled in another K over a period of time and have had further defaults from that.
Current bad debt total £1103, recoveries so far, £433.
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