arby
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Post by arby on Aug 26, 2018 9:15:38 GMT
The chart below shows the location of capital by loan status (active, completed, defaulted) over the entire life of the platform. It's designed to show how the loan book has expanded over time. The loan book has retracted by a little over £4m from the peak, but this may be due to increased funds allocated to loans in the process of filling (it's impossible(?) to know the value of new funds as distinct from renewed funds - i.e. loans in the process of renewing where investors have checked Renew?). I posted a similar chart in a loan thread as a line chart whereas this is an area chart.  Very interesting chart. In an ideal world there shouldn't be any active loan issued before Feb'18, however we only see a significant change in the shape of the active loans at about July'17 at which point almost no loans are either completing or being moved into unredeemed; there seems to be about £3m of loans from Jun'16 that are just dormant. If I've interpreted that right then I'm sure those who've been here longer than me will know some of those loans immediately.
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bg
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Post by bg on Aug 26, 2018 9:15:44 GMT
I mostly agree with you; my only point to consider would be measuring how long it took an average before they paid to see if there's a 'point of no return', then we apply that to the current 'late' book and make a judgement on that. Obviously there's no single defined point of no return and is instead a probability distribution, but that's how we work out which of those <3 month later loans will likely result in a loss. Yes, it may well give an indication as to whether the loan book is deteriorating. Given on average 30% of loans goto 3 months late (or worse) then given the existing loan book has 30% of loans 3 months late then potentially the current situation is fairly typical. Just because we have been scraping the SM data of every loan every 15 mins for a few months now. A few weeks ago we added details of late loans and it was easier to add it to the existing 15 min cycle.
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Godanubis
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Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
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Post by Godanubis on Aug 26, 2018 21:10:25 GMT
Fantastic work everybody thanks. I still say if you are going to hold loans to compleation don’t put more than 1% of your portfolio in any loan and you will make a decent return unless you are very very unlucky. You should never make an overall loss and non FISA capital losses would be deductible making return even better. It’s been raining so perhaps “Dan1” could work out what your overall loss/ return on £100000 portfolio where 1% was placed in all of the loans that failed (with loss of capital) in the last 2 years the worse case scenario .
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Post by dan1 on Aug 26, 2018 21:30:55 GMT
I calculate the total loans by copy and paste of the All active and past loans page into Excel, delete the cancelled loans, then sum the remaining loans. My total is £261,421,732.78. Is this how you do it because if it is it suggests that we don't see the same loans? Regardless, neither total is that near to the value stated on the Loan statistics page of £266,118,577 (correct to the end of July 2018). Maybe there are private loans that we don't have access to? I chose 90 days to classify loans as non-performing because this appears to be a common cut-off point. To be clear, I am not suggesting that all non-performing loans are bad (vice versa, I would not suggest all performing loans are good) but the probability that all capital and accrued interest will be paid is reduced the longer the loan is overdue. The easiest to grasp summary of non-performing loans that I could find... www.investopedia.com/terms/n/nonperformingloan.aspIn terms of: 1. The statistics above will over-estimate the NPLs because they don't take into account sums received from the borrower prior to the loan completing. 2. I assume "capitalized" refers to increasing the outstanding capital to pay for interest (as per the comment from SteveT ), in which case the statistics above will under-estimate the NPLs. 3. At which point FS (should) default the loan. I would guess the under-estimate of 2. far outweighs the over-estimate of 1. and therefore I consider the NPL Rate as optimistic. I have a script that runs every 15 mins that pulls in data for all loans, completed loans, late loans, > 3 months late, > 6 months late, > 1 year late amongst other things. The results are saved in a database. Yes 90 days late is the IMF definition of a NPL. In general though for dev/bridge loans many organisations use a longer time frame but it is fairly subjective. For unsecured business loans and the like (like FC loans), loans that are 3 months late are a massive worry. If the business is in trouble, they can't cover the interest and there are no assets then the risk of complete loss is very high. For a bridge loan, overrunning is very typical. Not being able to pay interest after 6 months does not impair the value of the asset...of course if the asset is very illiquid with a dubious valuation then the risk of default was high on day 1. If I wrote a bridge on a residential home in London at 50% LTV...then I really wouldn't be too worried if they were a few months late in refinancing. If I had lent against a performance, high spec powerboat then I would be worried as there is absolutely no market for such a boat and I would never have lent in the first place. My point was that if a loan had repaid in full then it can't be considered non-performing, even if it paid 3 months late. The loans to worry about are those that result in an actual loss. Please could you pull out the loan numbers (mainly 10 digits, a few old loans represented by alpha-numerics) and let me know those missing from the All active and past loans page or PM the list and I'll work out the missing loan numbers? I'm not entirely comfortable not being able to replicate the data on the Loan statistics page, this is one area that fundingsecure could tidy up with little additional work. We'd all love to invest in a residential bridge, 1st charge at 50% LTV in London at 13% with bonuses but let's be honest, these loans are few and far between and not typical of the FS loan book, more's the pity I've taken your point on board (no, that wasn't a powerboat pun  ) and revised the OPs to class non-performing loans as active loans overdue by 90+ days, redeemed loans with loss of capital/interest, and defaulted loans. The realised NPL rate is 16% (8% on a number of loans basis) excluding this years cohort and the oustanding NPL rate stands at 36% (23% by number of loans).
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Post by dan1 on Aug 26, 2018 21:47:21 GMT
Intrigued by the outstanding non-performing loan (NPL) rate (36% by loan value, 23% by number of loans) I decided to look at the historic rate of loans overdue by at least 90 days and 365 days. Note that loans overdue do not exactly equate to the definition of non-performing loans in the OPs because they don't include loans defaulted prior to 90 days overdue (for example, the Austin Healey was defaulted and fully recovered a month after the expected end date), although the difference is negligible.  ...and by number of loans  The rapid rise in the proportion of overdue loans over the last six months is of concern.
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arby
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Post by arby on Aug 26, 2018 21:51:47 GMT
The realised NPL rate is 16% (8% on a number of loans basis) excluding this years cohort and the oustanding NPL rate stands at 36% (23% by number of loans). So on this basis at least it means it's the larger loans that are underperforming the most. From what I've seen, it's also the larger loans that also seem to be the most speculative with potential for things to go wrong. I guess there isn't much surprise there, but it still sucks for people invested in those. So looking at best case, with 23% by number being NPL, assuming 50% recovery on those loans we'd end up losing 11.5% of our capital, while 88.5% with 13% interest equals (almost) exactly 1. So, assuming 50% recovery (not even sure that's realistic), we would currently break even if we put a fixed amount in every investment. From this, it makes me even more certain that the only we hope we have is having the skill or luck to identify the loans to avoid.
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Post by dan1 on Aug 26, 2018 22:26:51 GMT
Fantastic work everybody thanks. I still say if you are going to hold loans to compleation don’t put more than 1% of your portfolio in any loan and you will make a decent return unless you are very very unlucky. You should never make an overall loss and non FISA capital losses would be deductible making return even better. It’s been raining so perhaps “Dan1” could work out what your overall loss/ return on £100000 portfolio where 1% was placed in all of the loans that failed (with loss of capital) in the last 2 years the worse case scenario . I'll leave it to someone else (exercise for the author?) as I currently don't have the required data. TBH following my last couple of charts I'm a little more concerned with the next six months than the previous two years!
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Aug 26, 2018 22:33:01 GMT
Fantastic work everybody thanks. I still say if you are going to hold loans to compleation don’t put more than 1% of your portfolio in any loan and you will make a decent return unless you are very very unlucky. You should never make an overall loss and non FISA capital losses would be deductible making return even better. It’s been raining so perhaps “Dan1” could work out what your overall loss/ return on £100000 portfolio where 1% was placed in all of the loans that failed (with loss of capital) in the last 2 years the worse case scenario . Unless you make an overall loss (i.e. capital loss >interest) returns outside an IFISA will never be higher than those inside an IFISA. And making a capital loss can never make your return 'better' - it just makes the loss less bad.
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Godanubis
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Post by Godanubis on Aug 26, 2018 22:56:58 GMT
Fantastic work everybody thanks. I still say if you are going to hold loans to compleation don’t put more than 1% of your portfolio in any loan and you will make a decent return unless you are very very unlucky. You should never make an overall loss and non FISA capital losses would be deductible making return even better. It’s been raining so perhaps “Dan1” could work out what your overall loss/ return on £100000 portfolio where 1% was placed in all of the loans that failed (with loss of capital) in the last 2 years the worse case scenario . Unless you make an overall loss (i.e. capital loss >interest) returns outside an IFISA will never be higher than those inside an IFISA. And making a capital loss can never make your return 'better' - it just makes the loss less bad. You have to take your portfolio as a whole. Not an individual investment then your overall return will be better than not being able to offset FISA losses. As all my loans are in FISA and say I make £15-20k a year Most losses are covered by not having to pay the Tax were the investments in main account
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mjc
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Post by mjc on Aug 27, 2018 8:38:51 GMT
Thanks dan1 for your interesting info, if only FS would provide information that we could trust. I.E. IF 1% of portfolio was in every loan what the actual rate of return was after 6m, 12m, 2years etc. Or what buying on the SM actual return is???
Unfortunately all trust seems to have been lost (by most) on here.
i also wonder what the 50% chance of recovery date is? I.E. at the end of 6m those that have repaid is 100%, but after another 6m of being overdue and non-performing the chance of recovery must be about 50% but after 2 years a few pence in the pound!
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arby
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Post by arby on Aug 27, 2018 8:52:48 GMT
Thanks dan1 for your interesting info, if only FS would provide information that we could trust. I.E. IF 1% of portfolio was in every loan what the actual rate of return was after 6m, 12m, 2years etc. Or what buying on the SM actual return is??? Unfortunately all trust seems to have been lost (by most) on here. i also wonder what the 50% chance of recovery date is? I.E. at the end of 6m those that have repaid is 100%, but after another 6m of being overdue and non-performing the chance of recovery must be about 50% but after 2 years a few pence in the pound! Perhaps a very basic question, but these loans are often classed as unredeemed as opposed to defaulted. What is the difference? If the borrower pays the interest, but not the capital, is that unredeemed?
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Post by dan1 on Aug 27, 2018 9:04:17 GMT
So on this basis at least it means it's the larger loans that are underperforming the most. From what I've seen, it's also the larger loans that also seem to be the most speculative with potential for things to go wrong. I guess there isn't much surprise there, but it still sucks for people invested in those. So looking at best case, with 23% by number being NPL, assuming 50% recovery on those loans we'd end up losing 11.5% of our capital, while 88.5% with 13% interest equals (almost) exactly 1. So, assuming 50% recovery (not even sure that's realistic), we would currently break even if we put a fixed amount in every investment. From this, it makes me even more certain that the only we hope we have is having the skill or luck to identify the loans to avoid. You'd expect the larger development loans to overrun by more than a low value pawn loan where the security can be enforced after two weeks notice to the borrower (note the recent full recovery of the Austin Healey). Your 88.5% with 13% would return 94% because these are 6 month loans (6.5% paid rather than 13% pa). It's getting into the realms of speculation but I would hope your 50% recovery for a loan overdue by 3 months is rather pessimistic, which is backed up by the existing recovery statistics.
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Post by dan1 on Aug 27, 2018 9:13:29 GMT
Thanks dan1 for your interesting info, if only FS would provide information that we could trust. I.E. IF 1% of portfolio was in every loan what the actual rate of return was after 6m, 12m, 2years etc. Or what buying on the SM actual return is??? Unfortunately all trust seems to have been lost (by most) on here. i also wonder what the 50% chance of recovery date is? I.E. at the end of 6m those that have repaid is 100%, but after another 6m of being overdue and non-performing the chance of recovery must be about 50% but after 2 years a few pence in the pound! Perhaps a very basic question, but these loans are often classed as unredeemed as opposed to defaulted. What is the difference? If the borrower pays the interest, but not the capital, is that unredeemed? There is confusion until you understand the FS terminology - this is why I presented the first table in my OPs. What follows is my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong. From the All active and past loans page FS, looking at the Status and Defaulted columns... Status->Defaulted = descriptionLoan Active->[blank] = active loan, possibly overdue Loan Completed->[blank] = full payment of capital and interest Loan Completed->Recovered = defaulted loan with full payment of capital and interest Loan Completed->Defaulted = defaulted loan with partial payment of capital and interest (or in the case of Knaresborough 2nd charge loan no payment of capital or interest). I assume action may be continuing against PGs? Loan Defaulted->Unredeemed = defaulted loan in process of recovery Loan Cancelled->[blank] = cancelled loan, interest paid to lenders for duration funds were committed
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arby
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Post by arby on Aug 27, 2018 10:34:42 GMT
Perhaps a very basic question, but these loans are often classed as unredeemed as opposed to defaulted. What is the difference? If the borrower pays the interest, but not the capital, is that unredeemed? There is confusion until you understand the FS terminology - this is why I presented the first table in my OPs. What follows is my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong. From the All active and past loans page FS, looking at the Status and Defaulted columns... Status->Defaulted = descriptionLoan Active->[blank] = active loan, possibly overdue Loan Completed->[blank] = full payment of capital and interest Loan Completed->Recovered = defaulted loan with full payment of capital and interest Loan Completed->Defaulted = defaulted loan with partial payment of capital and interest (or in the case of Knaresborough 2nd charge loan no payment of capital or interest). I assume action may be continuing against PGs? Loan Defaulted->Unredeemed = defaulted loan in process of recovery Loan Cancelled->[blank] = cancelled loan, interest paid to lenders for duration funds were committed Thank you for the full breakdown. really helpful! As for the 6 month interest point you made in the other post, yep, stupid oversight by me there! 
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greenslime
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Post by greenslime on Aug 27, 2018 18:09:33 GMT
dan1 - many thanks for all this. Can anyone explain for me what happened in early 2016 to cause the marked increase in the % of loans overdue for >90 days in late 2016 and then in turn in the >365 days in Aug 2017? Was there a change in lending policy by FS?
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