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Post by mrclondon on Oct 26, 2018 14:47:33 GMT
Thanks for your reply kuflink, but please recognise that not everyone has a smartphone (or a web cam).
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puddleduck
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Post by puddleduck on Oct 26, 2018 14:49:32 GMT
I feel very strongly that people should not be socially engineered into thinking that facial recognition scans (or finger print scans etc) are in anyway a requirement to open or operate a financial account.
If someone was being bloody minded, as this is NOT a requirement under KYC no matter how you wish to spin it, you could be accused of a discriminatory policy against the older generation, many who will not even have smart phones or webcams.
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stub8535
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personal opinions only. Not qualified to advise on investment products.
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Post by stub8535 on Oct 26, 2018 15:34:32 GMT
I feel very strongly that people should not be socially engineered into thinking that facial recognition scans (or finger print scans etc) are in anyway a requirement to open or operate a financial account. If someone was being bloody minded, as this is NOT a requirement under KYC no matter how you wish to spin it, you could be accused of a discriminatory policy against the older generation, many who will not even have smart phones or webcams. Also, in the same aspect, one could argue that forcing someone to supply a driving licence or a passport, where the person may not have use or be inellugible for those documents is wrong as well. I disagree with video and fr things like previous posters as well. Not defending it.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Oct 26, 2018 15:48:23 GMT
Sorry but if that's the case I wouldn't have been able to open a bank account in under 5mins last week.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 26, 2018 16:48:15 GMT
Thanks for all the feedback and we’re more than happy to shed light on our recent change. We’ve recently upgraded our registration to keep up to the latest standards. You need to verify your identity in order to top up and use your Kuflink account. This policy is in line with a UK banking regulation called 'Know your Customer’ (KYC) and is the process of a business verifying the identity of its customers. This verification process must be carried out before we can open new accounts and it’s becoming increasingly common that companies offering financial services to use facial recognition technology. It is simply an anti-corruption and fraud measure. It’s easy to complete the verification with your smartphone in seconds. kuflink Apologies in advance, but I personally consider that as utter tosh somewhat misleading. You may have updated to keep up to the latest standard, but please don't say that REQUIRES you to use facial recognition. That is the route you have CHOSEN to use to be able to be compliant. That is rather different.
the last financial account I opened was with Marcus. They are very recently launched. No sign of a webcam, smartphone, driving license/passport scan or certifcation in sight.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 26, 2018 16:53:20 GMT
What are peoples thoughts on Kuflink's AML process after registering requiring a webcam or smartphone for facial recognition ?
....
The fact that I am typing this on a (work) MacBook Pro who's aesthetic lines I have somewhat diminished by way of having a ripped up bit of yellow PostIt stuck down with sellotape over the embedded "facetime" camera probably answers your question.
Still I'm apparently in good company:
If you can call that "good".
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mary
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Post by mary on Oct 26, 2018 17:49:24 GMT
kuflink Apologies in advance, but I personally consider that as utter tosh somewhat misleading. You may have updated to keep up to the latest standard, but please don't say that REQUIRES you to use facial recognition. That is the route you have CHOSEN to use to be able to be compliant. That is rather different.
the last financial account I opened was with Marcus. They are very recently launched. No sign of a webcam, smartphone, driving license/passport scan or certifcation in sight.
Me too, Marcus simple, easy (one of the biggest banks around, fairly sure they know the regulations)! In no way will I be using anyone who relies on facial recognition. Check out the stories of people’s iPhones that have been unlocked while they are asleep, same issue. Edit - PS, for my partners benefit, no, I’m not having an affair!
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dh1
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Post by dh1 on Oct 26, 2018 22:36:15 GMT
A useful discussion. I thought I'd have a quick dig around and find out what the "rules" are. A "rule" to me is the law applying to (in this case) Anti Money Laundering operations. "Law" doesn't include (OK except for Statutory) guidance or the rules of individual companies, trade bodies, opinions, etc. So, we get to the 2017 AML Regulations which appear to replace all the earlier versions and took effect on 26th June 2017, after stunningly brief Parliamentary scrutiny.
The Regulations run to 118 pages, 110 actual Regulations and 7 Schedules; they are not straightforward. Happily - wrong word, of course - we can home in on Regulation 28 and in particular, 28 (18) (a) and (b), which I'll partially quote:
"... (a) ... “verify” means verify on the basis of documents or information in either case obtained from a reliable source which is independent of the person whose identity is being verified;
(b) documents issued or made available by an official body are to be regarded as being independent of a person even if they are provided or made available to the relevant person
by or on behalf of that person. ..."
So, what a financial institution must do is to link (a) more than one and (b) genuine and (c) reliable document with their applicant. Most (I think) do this electronically and have done so for a while; others have given examples where this is still done.
Selfies and whatnot don't seem to me to contribute anything (especially as they struggle with both the "reliable source" and the "independent" requirements) to those three basic obligations, hence the proportionality comment I made earlier.
Interestingly, the actual verification requirements a financial institution uses should be arrived at following a very detailed risk assessment; that would need to explain the justification for selfies, etc. Would be interesting to see, wouldn't it?
Happily - correct use of the word this time - I'm not a lawyer so none of what I say on this should be taken as authoritative, of course.
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Godanubis
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Post by Godanubis on Oct 26, 2018 23:04:03 GMT
I understand your sentiments but it is quite common here in continental Europe to have to do videoident if you want to open an financial account online. German Bafin has just slapped N26 bank because it felt that the process N26 had to onboard Portugeese customers was not fulfilling Portugeese regulation (and would not have been sufficient in Germany either).
In Germany you either use the old process, which is filling paper forms and handing them in at the post office where the clerck checks your id and then mails them off or you use video ident (which I personally dislike too, but from a security viewpoint I can understand why it is much safer then the british requirement hust to upload a scan/picture of id and proof of address).
As it is live with an agent, in a scam you could not reuse previously recorded video. And the agent makes you tilt the id at an angle against the light which reflects the security features. Sure that could be faked, but it would require at least minor effort.
I am an identical twin. How good is FR based on a picture and a web cam ??
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mason
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Post by mason on Oct 27, 2018 7:10:39 GMT
Presumably the selfie is supposed to replace the part where an authority certifies that the photo ID document is a true likeness of the person in possession of the document.
The fatal flaw, of course, is that it's not possible to get in touch with someone and reliably verify when a selfie was taken and for what purpose. It's also quite difficult for a smartphone app or website to verify that they are receiving a feed from a genuine camera and not a virtual one under the control of a miscreant that is being fed a recorded video.
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pom
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Post by pom on Oct 27, 2018 21:36:02 GMT
What are peoples thoughts on Kuflink's AML process after registering requiring a webcam or smartphone for facial recognition ?
....
The fact that I am typing this on a (work) MacBook Pro who's aesthetic lines I have somewhat diminished by way of having a ripped up bit of yellow PostIt stuck down with sellotape over the embedded "facetime" camera probably answers your question.
Still I'm apparently in good company:
If you can call that "good".
Sheesh - at least get yourself some electrical tape, or duck tape  Me too (tho not mac) - after a couple of early morning customer webexes that were defaulting to using vid....tho since I applied the tape there seems to have been a lot more control
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Oct 28, 2018 22:44:26 GMT
The Compliance Industry is one of the most profitable sectors within financial services. In my experience, you can ask a compliance 'officer' a question in the morning and receive non-committal advice on his/her part. Same question in the afternoon and the advice is different.
Like a few others round here, I opened an account with Marcus a couple of weeks ago, it was painless and highly efficient. No doubt though Kuflink have employed the services of an 'expert' who now feels empowered to advise the company irrespective as to the impact it may have on their future business and in many cases, it's a 'turn off' for potential investors.
But of course as the individual(s) are being paid they must know better than anyone else. What I am aware of though from a previous life in financial services is that these 'experts' do not have a long shelf life with the companies they are advising. Afterwards they simply move on to another 'victim' company to fleece.
Reminds me of some RICS valuers and like those valuers, the compliance folks will not take responsibility. If the **** hits the fan the company implementing the advice will still be responsible. Hmmm........
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Post by scookey on Nov 9, 2018 10:11:07 GMT
I feel very strongly that people should not be socially engineered into thinking that facial recognition scans (or finger print scans etc) are in anyway a requirement to open or operate a financial account. If someone was being bloody minded, as this is NOT a requirement under KYC no matter how you wish to spin it, you could be accused of a discriminatory policy against the older generation, many who will not even have smart phones or webcams. Also, in the same aspect, one could argue that forcing someone to supply a driving licence or a passport, where the person may not have use or be inellugible for those documents is wrong as well. I disagree with video and fr things like previous posters as well. Not defending it. Well that's me out too, was going to sign up today but I'm not buying a smartphone or webcam when I don't have to - signed up with CrowdProperty instead - reminds me of when I used to work, we had to have an electronic tag and a monthly changed password just to use the photocopier, stopped us using the trainee to do copies the managers had to do their own - so saved them pennies but cost pounds - c'est la vie, one loses, one wins.
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Mucho P2P
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Post by Mucho P2P on Nov 22, 2018 15:53:52 GMT
I go on holiday with a friend, take a photo of their passport to make the airline bookings and for the API data, then I send in a “selfie” of my friend from holiday, and I have an account opened in my friend's name at Kuflink. Does not seem very effective AML/Identity check. Isn't checking the name/address against a credit agency register a better method? What is Kuflink trying to accomplish with all the hoops?  |
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Nov 22, 2018 16:43:38 GMT
I go on holiday with a friend, take a photo of their passport to make the airline bookings and for the API data, then I send in a “selfie” of my friend from holiday, and I have an account opened in my friend's name at Kuflink. Does not seem very effective AML/Identity check. Isn't checking the name/address against a credit agency register a better method? What is Kuflink trying to accomplish with all the hoops? This is my big bugbear. All of these 'security processes' make life very inconvenient for honest people, and yet provide no obstacle for the dishonest. This week I had to electronically sign a deed by clicking a button button in front of a witness, and then she had to type her name into the website. What a waste of time. Fortunately I do have a smart phone and was able to use that, otherwise I would have needed my witness to visit my home. I have had so many similar things in the last few years; "We need a letter of authority from ....", but they have no idea of that person's signature.... I'm a smartphone refusnik ...My concern is that platform growth in lenders could be constrained if enough people conclude like me that passing the AML check simply isn't worth the bother, and hence the issue becomes a platform risk. My guess is that they won't be bothered if a few people such as you are excluded. These fintech companies are run by young people, they will see you as a bit weird, and probably don't fit with the brand they are trying to create. I have a little sympathy with them on this issue, smartphones are now very cheap, no reason you can't use one for some of these things, and pull the battery the rest of the time. You wouldn't even need a SIM for most of this stuff. The fact that I am typing this on a (work) MacBook Pro who's aesthetic lines I have somewhat diminished by way of having a ripped up bit of yellow PostIt stuck down with sellotape over the embedded "facetime" camera probably answers your question. Still I'm apparently in good company:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/06/22/why-has-mark-zuckerberg-taped-over-the-webcam-and-microphone-on/ I am with you on that, I have a (better) bit of tape on on my old laptop. On my current laptop the camera is turned off in the bios, not sure if that it good enough. I really wanted a librem-13, but the cost with shipping and duties was too high. There doesn't seem to be an equivalent (hardware switches for microphone and webcam...) in Europe.
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