delboy
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Post by delboy on Feb 21, 2019 22:46:31 GMT
Assume your analysis is correct samford71 , and isn't there a certain contradictory irony in the dichotomy you lay out? "local traditional inward" votes leave (freedom from shackles and enhanced global trading etc) whilst "globalist independent outward" votes remain (tied to the coat-tails of a dodery superannuated European superstate in the making etc) Perhaps that explains your last sentence about resentment quickly rising again? I suspect we'll see the definitive work on the Trump presidency long before we see the same on Brexit. This is an irony many have been failing to recognise for some time. The ‘globalist liberals’ who accuse leavers of xenophobic small-mindedness are actually strongly in support of borders, tariffs, heavy immigration restrictions and regulations that discriminate against most of the world. It’s just a protectionist gang of states doing it rather than one state alone. And don’t get me started on the irony of the SNP position in Scotland.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Feb 21, 2019 22:57:34 GMT
Question Time tonight is good.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Feb 21, 2019 23:50:05 GMT
John Barnes 1 Panel 0 And I'm a gooner
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Feb 22, 2019 10:00:56 GMT
Next GE is going to be so much fun!
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aju
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Post by aju on Feb 22, 2019 10:36:30 GMT
John Barnes 1 Panel 0 And I'm a gooner I haven't seen it yet but I expected JB to push back against the hysteria circus, thankfully I don't use facetwit for much other than when things go wrong with the faceless companies I sometimes have to engage with. I guess i'm what they would term a luddite in the olden times. It is interesting though that Mr Neeson's film he was promoting does seem to bare a resemblance to his parable he proffered in his interview. Despite the kickbacks against LN and the film it was previewed at an Odeon cinema we saw Bohemian Rhapsody at last week. When I heard LN's comments on the more reputable versions of the story it did seem he was also talking about another film from the 70/80's I think called Deathwish. Many may have seen that series of films and can relate to it too.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 22, 2019 13:44:04 GMT
For all those posters suggesting that people were clearly voting for a hard Brexit and that it was obvious it meant leaving the SM/CU - see this Twitter thread of evidence to the contrary. Only 22% of Leave voters thought that Brexit meant losing full access to the single market.
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delboy
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Post by delboy on Feb 22, 2019 14:38:37 GMT
For all those posters suggesting that people were clearly voting for a hard Brexit and that it was obvious it meant leaving the SM/CU - see this Twitter thread of evidence to the contrary. Only 22% of Leave voters thought that Brexit meant losing full access to the single market. Oh here we go again. There were two options on the ballot paper. Neither contained any further options to stay or leave any specific element and so what else can one assume other than leave meant leave (in full) and remain meant remain (in full). Are you suggesting that remain voters expected to vote remain, win the referendum and then send TM to Brussels to negotiate an exit from specific elements of our membership that they don't like? Or does that only apply to leavers because that argument now suits those opposed to a full (or hard as you would describe it) Brexit? I voted leave hoping to get a deal that suited the UK. I didn't vote leave knowing that such a deal would be agreed because I, like most people with two brain cells, understand the meaning of negotiation and what the outcome of a failed negotiation actually means. Once again your post seems to suggest that leave voters were simply brainwashed by campaign groups and unable to form an independent thought - very patronising.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 22, 2019 16:01:52 GMT
For all those posters suggesting that people were clearly voting for a hard Brexit and that it was obvious it meant leaving the SM/CU - see this Twitter thread of evidence to the contrary. Only 22% of Leave voters thought that Brexit meant losing full access to the single market. Oh here we go again. There were two options on the ballot paper. Neither contained any further options to stay or leave any specific element and so what else can one assume other than leave meant leave (in full) and remain meant remain (in full). Are you suggesting that remain voters expected to vote remain, win the referendum and then send TM to Brussels to negotiate an exit from specific elements of our membership that they don't like? Or does that only apply to leavers because that argument now suits those opposed to a full (or hard as you would describe it) Brexit? I voted leave hoping to get a deal that suited the UK. I didn't vote leave knowing that such a deal would be agreed because I, like most people with two brain cells, understand the meaning of negotiation and what the outcome of a failed negotiation actually means. Once again your post seems to suggest that leave voters were simply brainwashed by campaign groups and unable to form an independent thought - very patronising. Well at least you seem to accept it is an assumption. For me, that's not good enough, especially if we are heading for a no deal exit. I also suggest much more understanding by Leave voters than you credit - that they had a range of desired outcomes. You suggest they all thought and wanted the same thing.
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Post by captainconfident on Feb 22, 2019 16:22:57 GMT
I don't think there is enough consideration by either side of why the other think as they do. But that seems to me most manifest in Leave voters. The Remain types are trying quite hard to understand the motivation of leave voters, but what about the other way round?
My posts on this board are almost all about my concern that Britain's economy will be very badly be damaged by Brexit. The motivation of "traitors" like Anna Soubry and other "Remainer" MP seems to be exactly that too, the effect of Brexit on the future of their constituents. Nobody is trying to 'do you down' because you voted leave. It is just that a lot of people think there is far more to be lost than will be gained. That is the crux of the disagreement, and surely we are all on the same side in wanting what is best for the country.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Feb 22, 2019 16:37:23 GMT
I don't think there is enough consideration by either side of why the other think as they do. But that seems to me most manifest in Leave voters. The Remain types are trying quite hard to understand the motivation of leave voters, but what about the other way round? My posts on this board are almost all about my concern that Britain's economy will be very badly be damaged by Brexit. The motivation of "traitors" like Anna Soubry and other "Remainer" MP seems to be exactly that too, the effect of Brexit on the future of their constituents. Nobody is trying to 'do you down' because you voted leave. It is just that a lot of people think there is far more to be lost than will be gained. That is the crux of the disagreement, and surely we are all on the same side in wanting what is best for the country. Wrt 'It is just that a lot of people think there is far more to be lost than will be gained', for many (most?) Leavers it's not about money, it's about how they want their country managed, so it's irrelevant how many economists/business leaders pop up and say how bad it'll be. (I ignore business leaders when they go on about wanting stability, as I suspect a lot of them would be quite happy doing business in a dictatorship as long as it gave stability ).
See for example the recent post by samford71 referring to Lord Ashcroft's poll on reasons people voted Leave/Remain. Little was about money.
As to economic forecasts 10 years out. I pay them about as much attention as 10 year weather reports. Can't be done.
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delboy
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Post by delboy on Feb 22, 2019 16:45:03 GMT
Well at least you seem to accept it is an assumption. For me, that's not good enough, especially if we are heading for a no deal exit. I also suggest much more understanding by Leave voters than you credit - that they had a range of desired outcomes. You suggest they all thought and wanted the same thing. That is, in fact, quite the opposite to what I am suggesting. I am suggesting that all but the dimmest must have known that a negotiation could end in no deal regardless of which shade of grey you had hoped for. I'm certainly not suggesting that all leave voters wanted the same thing - I want a deal, some leavers do not, but ultimately all leave voters knew what could be the outcome of their vote whether they liked that potential outcome or not; voting to leave was always a risk and voting to remain was less so, the outcome of the latter being 'known'.
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james100
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Post by james100 on Feb 22, 2019 17:00:36 GMT
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Feb 22, 2019 17:20:33 GMT
Brits born after the first referendum have little concept of the term sovereignty did not experience the mission creep of previous administrations from a trading contract to some sort of European Empire. One really cant expect them to know of anything different. If you scratch away the media chatter from the original CM members you will find there is no appetite for the present situation. Most people on this site are here to make money. Me to ,but voting for a clean break from Brussels will provide a self determination and focus that has been fudged for too long. Clean break, no deal please asap. I'm on the best of terms with all countries and wish them well.
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Post by captainconfident on Feb 22, 2019 17:51:05 GMT
Brits born after the first referendum have little concept of the term sovereignty did not experience the mission creep of previous administrations from a trading contract to some sort of European Empire. One really cant expect them to know of anything different. If you scratch away the media chatter from the original CM members you will find there is no appetite for the present situation. Most people on this site are here to make money. Me to ,but voting for a clean break from Brussels will provide a self determination and focus that has been fudged for too long. Clean break, no deal please asap. I'm on the best of terms with all countries and wish them well. We all know you think this because you have repeated it over and over again. But from your own earlier posts we know you are a pensioner living on a farm which you implied was practically self sufficient and inter alia that you do not care about the economic damage to employers and companies who actually contribute to the economy. So you have the luxury of taking the position that "self determination" is the only important thing and damn the consequences. But others don't.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Feb 22, 2019 18:06:34 GMT
/mod hat off
That's possibly true, but then there are quite a few folks (lots of them based in the City) who think that making/maximising £/$/Euros is the only thing that matters, and to heck with self determination, or the population density/mix in the UK, or social cohesion, or whatever.
If everyone had the same criteria, and made the same assumptions, (and was running in sane mode) they'd all come to the same conclusion (about this, and much else beside) .. sadly (?) there is no agreement on any of the above.
From a Chinese perspective / criteria, running the/their/a country by absolute decree and changing history to fit, is the right answer .. wouldn't do for everyone though... folks generally have a problem with shades of grey (and not just agreeing the spelling).
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