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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Mar 7, 2019 15:40:45 GMT
Oh the irony of it all.
Can't you see that the uncertainty and indecision is caused by people like you who will not accept the results of a democratic referendum. If all the remoaners had got behind brexit we would have gone (and the uncertainty ended) a long time ago.
Ah yes, I forgot that Brexiteers take no responsibility for their actions I guess at some point new 'names' will be needed for categories. I would suggest 'Itoldyouso' for frustrated remainers and 'mandellas' for the free at last.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Mar 7, 2019 15:45:09 GMT
I wasn't making any statement about Brexit's effect on jobs, simply using the article by the ONS to draw attention to the fact (which in retrospect I should have highlighted) that the employment rate is "the joint-highest since comparable estimates began in 1971".
People lose/gain jobs all the time, it goes with capitalism, we should concentrate on the big picture and it's a lot rosier than
I thought it was now common ground amongst rational Brexiteers that we will lose GDP (and hence jobs and/or income) but that that is a price worth paying for the return of sovereignty and of gaining control over EU immigration? Clearly depends on the amount, but loss of some GDP/income wouldn't stop me voting Leave. Doesn't help that a lot of people doing the forecasts are (biased) Remainers and - nothing to do with Brexit - nobody can forecast any economy 10 years out.
I often see articles in the media from Remainers saying "People didn't vote to be worse off". However, as some other journalist pointed out, people do that all the time, typically by voting for political parties that would raise tax.
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"What wonderful powers that Mark Carney, governor of the Bank of England, possesses. At a stroke, he has just succeeded in increasing the size of the economy by three per cent. Well, sort of. Only last November, the Bank of England claimed that a no-deal Brexit could cost the UK economy between 4.75 and 7.75 per cent of growth over a three year period, relative to what would happen under May’s deal. Yesterday, he changed his tune a little, telling the House of Lords economic affairs committee the effect of a no-deal Brexit on the UK economy in three years’ time would be between two and 3.5 per cent smaller than he had previously stated" blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/03/its-time-for-mark-carney-to-come-clean-about-brexit/
No doubt the (left-leaning?) Spectator preferred Carney's earlier gloomier forecast, as it was more likely what they wanted to hear.
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KoR_Wraith
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Post by KoR_Wraith on Mar 7, 2019 15:56:34 GMT
Clearly depends on the amount, but loss of some GDP/income wouldn't stop me voting Leave. Doesn't help that a lot of people doing the forecasts are (biased) Remainers and - nothing to do with Brexit - nobody can forecast any economy 10 years out.
I often see articles in the media from Remainers saying "People didn't vote to be worse off". However, as some other journalist pointed out, people do that all the time, typically by voting for political parties that would raise tax. Just because forecasts can be inaccurate does not mean they should be entirely disregarded. Do you take the same approach to weather? There's a big difference between voting to raise tax and voting to reduce your country's wealth.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Mar 7, 2019 16:01:37 GMT
Clearly depends on the amount, but loss of some GDP/income wouldn't stop me voting Leave. Doesn't help that a lot of people doing the forecasts are (biased) Remainers and - nothing to do with Brexit - nobody can forecast any economy 10 years out.
I often see articles in the media from Remainers saying "People didn't vote to be worse off". However, as some other journalist pointed out, people do that all the time, typically by voting for political parties that would raise tax. Just because forecasts can be inaccurate does not mean they should be entirely disregarded. Do you take the same approach to weather? There's a big difference between voting to raise tax and voting to reduce your country's wealth. I disagree. Government tax policies can affect GDP (e.g. vote for hard-left socialist governments and they can trash your economy), yet voters often see it in terms of "will I be better/worse off?" rather than "will GDP go up/down?".
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Mar 7, 2019 16:05:26 GMT
Oh the irony of it all.
Can't you see that the uncertainty and indecision is caused by people like you who will not accept the results of a democratic referendum. If all the remoaners had got behind brexit we would have gone (and the uncertainty ended) a long time ago.
Ah yes, I forgot that Brexiteers take no responsibility for their actions More irony.
Brexiteers would love to take responsibility for their actions, if only people would let brexit happen.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 7, 2019 16:17:10 GMT
Ah yes, I forgot that Brexiteers take no responsibility for their actions More irony.
Brexiteers would love to take responsibility for their actions, if only people would let brexit happen.
If more Brexiteers would be realistic, and actually reflect the referendum result (a knife edge, essentially split country) and the referendum campaign (i.e. what the Leave campaign actually said then, not what they say now) then Brexit might well have already happened. Since that hasn't yet happened, I for one am very happy that Parliamentary democracy and scrutiny is doing its job. The ultimate irony is that by holding out for a "pure" Brexit, Brexiteers may well lose Brexit altogether.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 7, 2019 16:18:46 GMT
Just because forecasts can be inaccurate does not mean they should be entirely disregarded. Do you take the same approach to weather? There's a big difference between voting to raise tax and voting to reduce your country's wealth. I disagree. Government tax policies can affect GDP (e.g. vote for hard-left socialist governments and they can trash your economy), yet voters often see it in terms of "will I be better/worse off?" rather than "will GDP go up/down?". Remind me the last time the electorate voted for a hard left socialist government?!
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 7, 2019 17:04:39 GMT
I disagree. Government tax policies can affect GDP (e.g. vote for hard-left socialist governments and they can trash your economy), yet voters often see it in terms of "will I be better/worse off?" rather than "will GDP go up/down?". Remind me the last time the electorate voted for a hard left socialist government?! Not sure any of us were alive if I remember correctly, definitely not mr foot - those were the days ;-)
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 7, 2019 17:12:30 GMT
I love it when each side has their own frame for what may happen but none of them and especially not the economist's have any real insight into what may or may not happen in any of the scenarios.
Mind you I don't have a bloody clue either, i do know what I as a remainer will be doing if they have another one of these referendum thingies, people vote or whatever they frame it as. I'm definitely not comfortable with voters getting shafted in what could end up as an undemocratic reversal if the remainers were to win this time round.
It all feels like it did in other countries votes etc etc. I.e. you need to keep voting until you get it right!...
perhaps we should have a best of 7 and keep trying for year upon year until we are so embroiled in this that nothing gets down and the whole country is bolloxed for years - oops isn't that where we are already!
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Mar 7, 2019 17:12:36 GMT
I disagree. Government tax policies can affect GDP (e.g. vote for hard-left socialist governments and they can trash your economy), yet voters often see it in terms of "will I be better/worse off?" rather than "will GDP go up/down?". Remind me the last time the electorate voted for a hard left socialist government?! I was making a general point, not specifically about the UK.
Are Brexiteers supposed to feel 'guilty' if GDP and/or peoples' income does indeed fall? People often vote for policies that make others worse off. One could say the Left use that as the basis of their appeal, e.g. asking millions of lower income voters if they'd like to see higher rates of tax on people with higher income? A: of course lots of the former are happy to vote that way as it's not them who are going to be worse off.
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 7, 2019 17:21:39 GMT
Remind me the last time the electorate voted for a hard left socialist government?! I was making a general point, not specifically about the UK.
Are Brexiteers supposed to feel 'guilty' if GDP and/or peoples' income does indeed fall? People often vote for policies that make others worse off. One could say the Left use that as the basis of their appeal, e.g. asking millions of lower income voters if they'd like to see higher rates of tax on people with higher income? A: of course lots of the former are happy to vote that way as it's not them who are going to be worse off.
Yeah the political classes have been doing that ever since I can remember - the Red team are definitely as good as the Blue team for that problem. Those yellow ones are not beyond this either. Vince talked an excellent talk when he was just a lowly economist for a big company, then when he was Yellow team member but not in power he sang from a completely different song sheet until he got a bit of power. Mind you he did stuff himself up as Bus Secretary when the newspaper boys got him for his blinding revelations on how he was going to get the Sky man - I think it was the Aussie one anyway.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Mar 7, 2019 17:34:14 GMT
Interesting how the Independent Group of MPs: -are happy to ask for a second referendum as they believe voters might not have expected this Brexit outcome and/or have changed their mind, but
-aren't willing to force by-elections to test whether their electorate are happy with this unexpected outcome and/or have changed their minds.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Mar 7, 2019 17:39:09 GMT
Interesting how the Independent Group of MPs: -are happy to ask for a second referendum as they believe voters might not have expected this Brexit outcome and/or have changed their mind, but
-aren't willing to force by-elections to test whether their electorate are happy with this unexpected outcome and/or have changed their minds. I can't argue with that.
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Post by captainconfident on Mar 7, 2019 18:21:44 GMT
I can argue with this:-
I often see articles in the media from Remainers saying "People didn't vote to be worse off". However, as some other journalist pointed out, people do that all the time, typically by voting for political parties that would raise tax.
This is just obviously a stupid statement. Tax money is needed to run the country, which is for the general good of citizens. People vote for parties that would raise tax because they approve of their spending priorities and which they expect to benefit from, not in order to get poorer. Got any other banal comparisons for me to criticise?
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Post by bracknellboy on Mar 7, 2019 20:18:39 GMT
I disagree. Government tax policies can affect GDP (e.g. vote for hard-left socialist governments and they can trash your economy), yet voters often see it in terms of "will I be better/worse off?" rather than "will GDP go up/down?". Remind me the last time the electorate voted for a hard left socialist government?! In about 3 years time I suspect....
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