pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Mar 8, 2019 8:03:31 GMT
... If all the remoaners had got behind brexit we would have gone (and the uncertainty ended) a long time ago.Nonsense. The only people who are stopping brexit happen today are the brexiteers who won't vote for May's deal. May's deal offers the fullest brexit that it is possible to achieve without breaking the Good Friday agreement. If the brexiteers in parliament won't accept it the most likely outcomes are a softer brexit or no brexit at all. And that will be their fault entirely.
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Mar 8, 2019 9:07:51 GMT
... If all the remoaners had got behind brexit we would have gone (and the uncertainty ended) a long time ago.Nonsense. The only people who are stopping brexit happen today are the brexiteers who won't vote for May's deal. May's deal offers the fullest brexit that it is possible to achieve without breaking the Good Friday agreement. If the brexiteers in parliament won't accept it the most likely outcomes are a softer brexit or no brexit at all. And that will be their fault entirely. It is impossible to leave the EU in any meaningful way whilst maintaining all aspects of the GFA because that agreement effectively is predicated upon the UK being in the EU. GFA includes Common Travel Area which implies Single Market and Customs Union and everything that brings with it, i.e. not leaving. Covering this Gordian Knot with Cox's codpiece or EU "assurances" won't work, it can only be cut.
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Post by Butch Cassidy on Mar 8, 2019 11:09:31 GMT
Nonsense. The only people who are stopping brexit happen today are the brexiteers who won't vote for May's deal. May's deal offers the fullest brexit that it is possible to achieve without breaking the Good Friday agreement. If the brexiteers in parliament won't accept it the most likely outcomes are a softer brexit or no brexit at all. And that will be their fault entirely. It is impossible to leave the EU in any meaningful way whilst maintaining all aspects of the GFA because that agreement effectively is predicated upon the UK being in the EU. GFA includes Common Travel Area which implies Single Market and Customs Union and everything that brings with it, i.e. not leaving.
Covering this Gordian Knot with Cox's codpiece or EU "assurances" won't work, it can only be cut. Remoaners want the GFA to override leaving but it looks an increasingly desperate tactic to me; the common travel area dates from 1920's before the EU/EEC/Common market was even thought of & all it takes is common sense & political will to come to an acceptable mutual agreement to accommodate both the Irish border & UK leaving the EU intact, including NI. Obviously that political will doesn't exist, largely because the EU & most of UK politicians/civil servants don't actually want us to leave at all.
The EU SIMPLY MUST punish the UK to achieve at least one of 2 outcomes; either us staying in (either with TM deal or similar) to retain our financial contribution but also hamstring our free market economy with their rules & regulations to prevent us out competing their own business's but probably more importantly to demonstrate to all remaining members that even the 2nd largest member (& 5th largest economy in the world & by far the EU's largest customer) can be treated punitively for daring to attempt to become independent, even if that results in self harm for their own members. Just imagine the effect on the Irish economy if we adopted a hard line on WTO tarrifs & goods that were being transported directly to the EU via our territory - they would be bankrupty within months & probably deserve it for overplaying their hand but if you don't believe the EU would crucify a member to prove a point just look at Greece.
I have always believed the only way out would have been to have left within a few months of the result to WTO terms & then negotiate a good deal from a position of parity but our pigmy politicians were never going to allow "the best negotiating strategy" which is why DD & Raab had to resign. I now think Raab summed it up well on QT along the lines of "for those politicians who delay & ultimately thwart Brexit they will reap the consequences at the ballot box" but I fear there may be civil unrest in the interim.
Parliament will not allow a no deal so either a terrible deal or delay is now inevitable both designed to keep us in & quite rightly not only 17.4m but a large proportion of the 16.2m (who are democrats & DO actually respect the result) will be outraged & unless democracy gets a run out pretty soon afterwards, perhaps a general election, then EU & our own politicians will find out that we are a nation of lions even if we are being led by donkeys. Should we have a vote in the EU elections in May then both Con & Lab better get ready for the backlash & hopefully such a peaceful democratic message might be enough to make them realise that you circumvent democracy at your peril otherwise I fear the consequences.
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Post by captainconfident on Mar 8, 2019 13:43:19 GMT
It is amusing how Leavers' faith in good old British democracy evaporates at the suggestion that the electorate should have a vote about how to proceed from the current mire. Apparently it is anti-democratic to ask the electorate what it wants to do, now that everyone is better informed of the facts.
I wonder what correlation there is between believing that Britain would be better off out of the EU, and believing that current climate change is not man-made? Both seem faith rather than fact based. Looking at contributors on the other thread, it looks like these seemingly unrelated opinions go hand in hand. Are you all "Pro-Life" as well?
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Post by Butch Cassidy on Mar 8, 2019 14:03:28 GMT
It is amusing how Leavers' faith in good old British democracy evaporates at the suggestion that the electorate should have a vote about how to proceed from the current mire. Apparently it is anti-democratic to ask the electorate what it wants to do, now that everyone is better informed of the facts. Country has already decided to leave so any "peoples vote" should be WTO terms or TM deal (or some other variant of remain). For the record I think leave (on WTO terms) would win by a larger margin than last time whatever the question.
Strange how the only advocates of a 2nd referendum are those who lost the first one but insist that remain should now be one option, it's almost as though they didn't accept the result last time & believe that leavers are too Northern/stupid/racist/bigoted to know what they were voting for, so they need to help & reverse democracy by claiming its "the only democratic way forward" but that can't be the case as they say that they respect the result - so must be true.
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Post by captainconfident on Mar 8, 2019 14:09:50 GMT
That's just the stock leaver answer. Asking the electorate to vote is the definition of democracy. To argue against it or to insist the electorate be denied certain options does not speak highly either in your belief in democracy, "the will of the people" or of your belief the popularity of your cause. I see you passed on the abortion question.
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Post by Butch Cassidy on Mar 8, 2019 14:28:04 GMT
That's just the stock leaver answer. Asking the electorate to vote is the definition of democracy. To argue against it or to insist the electorate be denied certain options does not speak highly either in your belief in democracy, "the will of the people" or of your belief the popularity of your cause. I see you passed on the abortion question. Not that it's relevant but a woman's body is her own & she should have the final say on what happens to it.
As for a stock leavers answer - well we were told that 1. We could decide, 2. That the result was final & 3. The politicians would enact the will of the people/result - I don't remember any other caveats such as backstops or 2nd referendums.
I personally wouldn't define democracy as constantly asking the people the same question until you get the answer that you want & then call it democracy, although I admit that is the exact past record of the EU.
How many more referendums will we have if 1. Leave wins again or 2. Remain wins?
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 8, 2019 15:04:48 GMT
This thread seems to be mirroring the politicos, round and round, back and forth, me head hurts way too much now.
Country Joe Macdonald had the right idea back in the late 60's ... Some days I feel like i'm gonna die having just watched Will Self and the ERG leader stare each other out on the BBC's politics show today - I thought one of them was going to hit the other one. Not too sure why though Mr Francois wasn't listening to what Mr Self actually said or he heard what he wanted to hear.
Break out the pitch forks!. Hoist up the flag, not sure which one mind!.
Will Self's best line when Mr Deputy Chair of the Conservative ERG said something like "We must honour the British vote for Brexit" - Will self muttered "Well English at least!" He's got a point I feel.
It seems the program is trending on the news feeds at the moment...
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Post by Butch Cassidy on Mar 8, 2019 15:28:43 GMT
This thread seems to be mirroring the politicos, round and round, back and forth, me head hurts way too much now. Country Joe Macdonald had the right idea back in the late 60's ... Some days I feel like i'm gonna die having just watched Will Self and the ERG leader stare each other out on the BBC's politics show today - I thought one of them was going to hit the other one. Not too sure why though. Break out the pitch forks!. Hoist up the flag, not sure which one mind!. Will Self's best line when Mr Deputy Chair of the Conservative ERG said something like "We must honour the British vote for Brexit" - Will self muttered "Well English at least!" He's got a point I feel. It seems the program is trending on the news feeds at the moment... Mark Francois is the bloke & it was an impressive "stare off" but to be fair to him & the ERG they are simply representing the exact wording of their GE manifesto on which all CON (& Lab MP's for that matter) were elected to parliament. Something which a lot of them seem to have conveniently forgotten about in their rush to reverse Brexit - just imagine, elected politicians actually doing what they promised when they asked for your vote at the election, it'll never catch on.
As for the English dragging the Scots out of the EU against their wishes - there's another referendum the SNP losers refuse to accept the result of. If they or the Welsh/Irish/Cornish/Londoners want out of the UK then feel free to campaign for a referendum but when you get your vote & subsequently lose please have the self respect & democratic decency to accept the result, rather than claim the other side lied & stole the vote whilst simultaneously trying to steal the result yourself.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Mar 8, 2019 15:35:49 GMT
... If all the remoaners had got behind brexit we would have gone (and the uncertainty ended) a long time ago.Nonsense. The only people who are stopping brexit happen today are the brexiteers who won't vote for May's deal. May's deal offers the fullest brexit that it is possible to achieve without breaking the Good Friday agreement. If the brexiteers in parliament won't accept it the most likely outcomes are a softer brexit or no brexit at all. And that will be their fault entirely. Many thanks for your courteous response to my post.
While you may not agree, I find it inconcieveable that the process wouldn't have progressed in a more efficient manner if all 650 MP's were supporting it. Given that the majority of the 432 MP's who opposed TM's deal were remoaners, it's obvious where the problem is.
The majority of MP's would like to stop brexit, provided they could do so in a way that avoided having their fingerprints on the treacherous act.
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aju
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Post by aju on Mar 8, 2019 15:56:54 GMT
This thread seems to be mirroring the politicos, round and round, back and forth, me head hurts way too much now. Country Joe Macdonald had the right idea back in the late 60's ... Some days I feel like i'm gonna die having just watched Will Self and the ERG leader stare each other out on the BBC's politics show today - I thought one of them was going to hit the other one. Not too sure why though. Break out the pitch forks!. Hoist up the flag, not sure which one mind!. Will Self's best line when Mr Deputy Chair of the Conservative ERG said something like "We must honour the British vote for Brexit" - Will self muttered "Well English at least!" He's got a point I feel. It seems the program is trending on the news feeds at the moment... Mark Francois is the bloke & it was an impressive "stare off" but to be fair to him & the ERG they are simply representing the exact wording of their GE manifesto on which all CON (& Lab MP's for that matter) were elected to parliament. Something which a lot of them seem to have conveniently forgotten about in their rush to reverse Brexit - just imagine, elected politicians actually doing what they promised when they asked for your vote at the election, it'll never catch on.
As for the English dragging the Scots out of the EU against their wishes - there's another referendum the SNP losers refuse to accept the result of. If they or the Welsh/Irish/Cornish/Londoners want out of the UK then feel free to campaign for a referendum but when you get your vote & subsequently lose please have the self respect & democratic decency to accept the result, rather than claim the other side lied & stole the vote whilst simultaneously trying to steal the result yourself.
It's a bit of a mess as you so eloquently point out. One of the things I've always come clean on is that I am a remainer but I am not in favour of any more votes for the people in fact I just want them to get on with whatever it is we are going to end up with and let's move on back to important day to day stuff. I've also said if they force a people vote or whatever they call it then i'd be likely to vote leave this time - because I feel they are riding roughshod with what they all seem to think is democracy. The other reason I don't want a another vote is it will never be accepted by the losers or the winners regardless of who it may be and makes a mockery of voting at all. We could go for best of 3 I suppose!
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Post by captainconfident on Mar 8, 2019 16:39:21 GMT
So it would be better, given that May's deal probably won't get through and parliament then votes for an A50 extension and that this has to be 2+ years to be accepted by the EU, to listen to years more hopeless wrangling between the EU and whatever dolt the Tories send over next, rather then solving all this at a stroke by going back to the people for a decision?
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Post by Butch Cassidy on Mar 8, 2019 17:30:06 GMT
So it would be better, given that May's deal probably won't get through and parliament then votes for an A50 extension and that this has to be 2+ years to be accepted by the EU, to listen to years more hopeless wrangling between the EU and whatever dolt the Tories send over next, rather then solving all this at a stroke by going back to the people for a decision? Alternative just enforce the current UK/EU law "leave on the 29th March 2019" if this means WTO terms then so be it; won't be long before the EU are begging for a good trade deal, once they start paying tariffs (they owe us £13bn pa & we owe them £5bn pa) so a net £8bn gain pa, after reimbursing our exporters + saving £39bn one off divorce payment, looks like we'll be quids in.
£350m week for the NHS anyone? Also schools. police, social care please form an orderly queue for your Brexit bonus windfall, there'll be plenty to go round everyone.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 8, 2019 18:08:44 GMT
So it would be better, given that May's deal probably won't get through and parliament then votes for an A50 extension and that this has to be 2+ years to be accepted by the EU, to listen to years more hopeless wrangling between the EU and whatever dolt the Tories send over next, rather then solving all this at a stroke by going back to the people for a decision? Alternative just enforce the current UK/EU law "leave on the 29th March 2019" if this means WTO terms then so be it; won't be long before the EU are begging for a good trade deal, once they start paying tariffs (they owe us £13bn pa & we owe them £5bn pa) so a net £8bn gain pa, after reimbursing our exporters + saving £39bn one off divorce payment, looks like we'll be quids in.
£350m week for the NHS anyone? Also schools. police, social care please form an orderly queue for your Brexit bonus windfall, there'll be plenty to go round everyone.
I don't think we'll fall for that one again! And try getting a trade deal without paying up your previous commitments. Sorry, fantasies are so 2016. As are amateur economics.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 8, 2019 18:14:37 GMT
Mark Francois is the bloke & it was an impressive "stare off" but to be fair to him & the ERG they are simply representing the exact wording of their GE manifesto on which all CON (& Lab MP's for that matter) were elected to parliament. Something which a lot of them seem to have conveniently forgotten about in their rush to reverse Brexit - just imagine, elected politicians actually doing what they promised when they asked for your vote at the election, it'll never catch on.
As for the English dragging the Scots out of the EU against their wishes - there's another referendum the SNP losers refuse to accept the result of. If they or the Welsh/Irish/Cornish/Londoners want out of the UK then feel free to campaign for a referendum but when you get your vote & subsequently lose please have the self respect & democratic decency to accept the result, rather than claim the other side lied & stole the vote whilst simultaneously trying to steal the result yourself.
It's a bit of a mess as you so eloquently point out. One of the things I've always come clean on is that I am a remainer but I am not in favour of any more votes for the people in fact I just want them to get on with whatever it is we are going to end up with and let's move on back to important day to day stuff. I've also said if they force a people vote or whatever they call it then i'd be likely to vote leave this time - because I feel they are riding roughshod with what they all seem to think is democracy. The other reason I don't want a another vote is it will never be accepted by the losers or the winners regardless of who it may be and makes a mockery of voting at all. We could go for best of 3 I suppose! Good! You would get a chance to express your democratic view on that, and on the deal we have in the table in 2019. You've changed your vote, which emphasises precisely that democracy is a dynamic not static one off process. We have already had two votes, so the next one will actually be the best of three. We may even need best of 5 to settle this if new deals are negotiated. That is fundamentally not anti-democratic in my view - quite the opposite.
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