IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 8, 2019 18:20:58 GMT
Mark Francois is the bloke & it was an impressive "stare off" but to be fair to him & the ERG they are simply representing the exact wording of their GE manifesto on which all CON (& Lab MP's for that matter) were elected to parliament. Something which a lot of them seem to have conveniently forgotten about in their rush to reverse Brexit - just imagine, elected politicians actually doing what they promised when they asked for your vote at the election, it'll never catch on.
As for the English dragging the Scots out of the EU against their wishes - there's another referendum the SNP losers refuse to accept the result of. If they or the Welsh/Irish/Cornish/Londoners want out of the UK then feel free to campaign for a referendum but when you get your vote & subsequently lose please have the self respect & democratic decency to accept the result, rather than claim the other side lied & stole the vote whilst simultaneously trying to steal the result yourself.
It's a bit of a mess as you so eloquently point out. One of the things I've always come clean on is that I am a remainer but I am not in favour of any more votes for the people in fact I just want them to get on with whatever it is we are going to end up with and let's move on back to important day to day stuff. I've also said if they force a people vote or whatever they call it then i'd be likely to vote leave this time - because I feel they are riding roughshod with what they all seem to think is democracy. The other reason I don't want a another vote is it will never be accepted by the losers or the winners regardless of who it may be and makes a mockery of voting at all. We could go for best of 3 I suppose! The other thing that worries me is that this is seen as "losers" v "winners". It's fundamental constitutional change for everyone in this country, which needs care, thought, planning, consultation, modelling, refinement, and (I would argue) ratification. Instead it's treated like a football result, or even a war.
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Post by martin44 on Mar 8, 2019 22:55:49 GMT
A nice move by TM today... Grimsby. I wonder how many times shes been there? Patience is wearing thin.
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Post by martin44 on Mar 8, 2019 23:40:40 GMT
So it would be better, given that May's deal probably won't get through and parliament then votes for an A50 extension and that this has to be 2+ years to be accepted by the EU, to listen to years more hopeless wrangling between the EU and whatever dolt the Tories send over next, rather then solving all this at a stroke by going back to the people for a decision? That's not quite correct.. if Mays deal does not go through parliament, there are various "other" votes that are still to be proposed in the coming days ... that said, even if parliament votes for an A50 Extension, it does not have to be for 2+ years... that's only if we revoke A50, as stated by the attorney general in parliament... we can quite legitimately request any length of extension that we feel necessary... the EU 20odd will then decide whether the request is acceptable/or not as the case may be... as for a second referendum.. there appears, quite rightly, to be no appetite for such a divisive decision.. However...time will tell. uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-secondreferendum/no-majority-in-british-parliament-for-second-brexit-referendum-reuters-analysis-idUKKCN1QP1VG
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Mar 9, 2019 8:48:47 GMT
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Post by Butch Cassidy on Mar 9, 2019 10:13:35 GMT
Alternative just enforce the current UK/EU law "leave on the 29th March 2019" if this means WTO terms then so be it; won't be long before the EU are begging for a good trade deal, once they start paying tariffs (they owe us £13bn pa & we owe them £5bn pa) so a net £8bn gain pa, after reimbursing our exporters + saving £39bn one off divorce payment, looks like we'll be quids in.
£350m week for the NHS anyone? Also schools. police, social care please form an orderly queue for your Brexit bonus windfall, there'll be plenty to go round everyone.
I don't think we'll fall for that one again! And try getting a trade deal without paying up your previous commitments. Sorry, fantasies are so 2016. As are amateur economics. As an ardent, yet pragmatic Brexiteer I would be more than willing to settle our previous commitments, whether or not we are legally bound to, however the money is very important to the EU & as such provides us with significant leverage in the future relationship negotiations & I wouldn't give it away for nothing in return, as TM deal proposes. I would prefer a good deal yet won't accept a terrible deal or be dictated terms by a corrupt, failing & undemocratic institution & ultimately WTO terms, whilst not ideal, are far from the catastrophic, end of the world, Armageddon scenario that they are being portrayed as. We are the 5th biggest economy in the world, have the business language of the world, a global powerhouse financial sector, a unique set of relationships with both the commonwealth & the largest/fastest growing parts of the earth & have boundless optimism, creativity, ingenuity, resourcefulness & ability to succeed in any situation we find our selves in.
As for fantasies I'm afraid that equally applies to remoaners if they believe they can conspire & connive a way to keep us in the EU against the clearly expressed democratic vote that the we had in 2016. All the traitorous collaboration by Blair/Clarke/Soubry/Benn/Grieve/Cooper et al with Juncker/Verhofstad/Tusk will achieve is public disgust & ultimately result in humiliation; appeasement always fails & as the British have proved repeatedly over the centuries we are a resolute, optimistic, generous & stoic nation but when backed into a corner we will stand & fight for what is right. I would love the entire country to get behind a good leave deal & move into the future as a united & happy independent force for good in the world but can accept that some of you will be required to be dragged along, kicking & screaming like petulant children who simply won't accept the inevitable.
Brexiteers don't want a war or a fight with either the EU or the remoaner minority; all we require is a good leave deal, that is fair, balanced & equitable to both sides & that everyone can accept & move forward in a collaborative yet independent way but our generosity, tolerance & benevolence has certain limits, being denied democracy & forced to remain is beyond that line & should anyone think that would be an acceptable outcome then they are very misguided & if the politicians force that through then we will stand & fight, using whatever means necessary to assert the result & please be in no doubt we will win & we will leave.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Mar 9, 2019 11:39:40 GMT
As an ardent, yet pragmatic Brexiteer I would be more than willing to settle our previous commitments, whether or not we are legally bound to, however the money is very important to the EU & as such provides us with significant leverage in the future relationship negotiations & I wouldn't give it away for nothing in return, as TM deal proposes. I would prefer a good deal yet won't accept a terrible deal or be dictated terms by a corrupt, failing & undemocratic institution & ultimately WTO terms, whilst not ideal, are far from the catastrophic, end of the world, Armageddon scenario that they are being portrayed as. We are the 5th biggest economy in the world, have the business language of the world, a global powerhouse financial sector, a unique set of relationships with both the commonwealth & the largest/fastest growing parts of the earth & have boundless optimism, creativity, ingenuity, resourcefulness & ability to succeed in any situation we find our selves in. As for fantasies I'm afraid that equally applies to remoaners if they believe they can conspire & connive a way to keep us in the EU against the clearly expressed democratic vote that the we had in 2016. All the traitorous collaboration by Blair/Clarke/Soubry/Benn/Grieve/Cooper et al with Juncker/Verhofstad/Tusk will achieve is public disgust & ultimately result in humiliation; appeasement always fails & as the British have proved repeatedly over the centuries we are a resolute, optimistic, generous & stoic nation but when backed into a corner we will stand & fight for what is right. I would love the entire country to get behind a good leave deal & move into the future as a united & happy independent force for good in the world but can accept that some of you will be required to be dragged along, kicking & screaming like petulant children who simply won't accept the inevitable. Brexiteers don't want a war or a fight with either the EU or the remoaner minority; all we require is a good leave deal, that is fair, balanced & equitable to both sides & that everyone can accept & move forward in a collaborative yet independent way but our generosity, tolerance & benevolence has certain limits, being denied democracy & forced to remain is beyond that line & should anyone think that would be an acceptable outcome then they are very misguided & if the politicians force that through then we will stand & fight, using whatever means necessary to assert the result & please be in no doubt we will win & we will leave. If you'd toned down the rhetoric, left out the hyperbole, and not stooped to insult I would have said "bravo, whilst I disagree with your analysis, and regret the outcome, in the circumstances I broadly support what you are hoping for". As it is I just find myself repelled. How about trying to bring the country together rather than using highly emotive language to denigrate those who disagree with you?
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Mar 9, 2019 14:35:09 GMT
For those of you who are 'woke' (and those like me who aren't but just find it funny):
"One of the unwritten rules of democracy is that referendums can be overturned if a sufficient number of rich celebrities demand it" from Woke, A Guide to Social Justice by Titania McGrath (Andrew Doyle), reviewed in The Times (no link as I was reading the print edition)
"I have always stood up for minorities. As such, it is essential that we respect the wishes of the minority of UK voters and overturn Brexit"
'People are far too sentimental about the elderly,’ she writes. ‘I am no longer helping them cross the street. They opted for Brexit, so as far as I’m concerned they can take their chances with the traffic. Remember too that these are the people who fought in the second World War. How can shooting at Germans be anything other than xenophobic?’
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Post by captainconfident on Mar 9, 2019 14:53:08 GMT
What is being discounted here is that "traitorous" Blair/Clarke/Soubry/Benn/Grieve/Cooper and me and register and Ifisa and you, Butch, all want what's best for The United Kingdom. It is the lack of respect for other peoples opinions that has lead to the death threats and what essentially amounts to incitement to violence on certain easily found campaign websites.
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Mar 9, 2019 16:35:20 GMT
What is being discounted here is that "traitorous" Blair/Clarke/Soubry/Benn/Grieve/Cooper and me and register and Ifisa and you, Butch, all want what's best for The United Kingdom. It is the lack of respect for other peoples opinions that has lead to the death threats and what essentially amounts to incitement to violence on certain easily found campaign websites. What's to respect? Oh yep, the result of a referendum and whether its going to be honoured ? Mind you, 'respect' and' honour' are archaic terms and few people are going to hear them above the squeals of righteous derision.
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Post by charlata on Mar 9, 2019 17:39:42 GMT
I would be more than willing to settle our previous commitments, whether or not we are legally bound to, however the money is very important to the EU & as such provides us with significant leverage in the future relationship negotiations & I wouldn't give it away for nothing in return, as TM deal proposes. Butch - Hello, Mr Bank manager, I'd like to leave your bank. Bank manager - That's a shame, If you'd like to settle your mortgage, we'll close your account Butch - As a pragmatic and reasonable chap I'm quite prepared to settle my mortgage, but only if you buy me a red sports car
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copacetic
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Post by copacetic on Mar 10, 2019 9:38:16 GMT
Butch - Hello, Mr Bank manager, I'd like to leave your bank. Bank manager - That's a shame, If you'd like to settle your mortgage, we'll close your account Butch - As a pragmatic and reasonable chap I'm quite prepared to settle my mortgage, but only if you buy me a red sports car
The problem is the divorce bill wasn't the result of a reasonable negotiation held in good faith. It's primary purpose is to either scare the UK into remaining or punish it for leaving.
For example, I expect most people on this forum are investors. Imagine you bought £1000 worth of shares in a startup company. 20 years later after some success your shares are worth £3000. The other shareholders say you can sell your shares for £1000. Would you be happy?
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Post by captainconfident on Mar 10, 2019 12:38:33 GMT
The problem is the divorce bill wasn't the result of a reasonable negotiation held in good faith. It's primary purpose is to either scare the UK into remaining or punish it for leaving.
However, back in the wonderful world of facts, The calculations are an estimate of the UK’s commitments to the EU, valued according to a set of agreed principles. The bill is made up of: The UK’s contribution to EU annual budgets up to 2020; Payment of outstanding commitments; and Financing liabilities up to the end of 2020.fullfact.org/europe/eu-divorce-bill/
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copacetic
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Post by copacetic on Mar 10, 2019 13:30:54 GMT
Cool. If I get married then divorced I'll be sure to suggest to the judge that we can split our borrowings but to let me keep the assets.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Mar 10, 2019 14:16:00 GMT
Cool. If I get married then divorced I'll be sure to suggest to the judge that we can split our borrowings but to let me keep the assets. Does appear like standard one sided EU negotiating tactits. When the divorce settlement was first discussed I saw an item that suggested that the EU had assets of about 159bn euros. We contribute about 13% of the overall budget, so I assume we should get 13% of the assets on leaving? Also we will be barred from having access to certain EU systems that we have paid to help develop (for example ECRIS). Shouldn't we get our share of the development costs back?
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Post by captainconfident on Mar 10, 2019 15:19:54 GMT
Brexiteers don't want a war or a fight with either the EU or the remoaner minority; all we require is a good leave deal, that is fair, balanced & equitable to both sides & that everyone can accept & move forward in a collaborative yet independent way but our generosity, tolerance & benevolence has certain limits, being denied democracy & forced to remain is beyond that line & should anyone think that would be an acceptable outcome then they are very misguided & if the politicians force that through then we will stand & fight, using whatever means necessary to assert the result & please be in no doubt we will win & we will leave.
Well, that last discussion of what the "Brexit Divorce Bill" is made up of is a bit dull, so let's backtrack to something much more exciting. I'm assuming that Butch here will have to start experimenting with the petrol bombs pretty soon. And then what, go to that there London and loot a shop? Sorry, overthrow the Government! I can imagine all the free bus passes being waved assertively at the barrier in Parliament Square. The government will flee, and Butch and the Brexit hoards will DECLARE INDEPENDENCE! I can't wait.
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