cb25
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Post by cb25 on Nov 18, 2018 15:22:46 GMT
On the news today, plans to introduce 2 year degree courses. Rather than studying 3 years (@ 30 wks/yr?) at maximum of £9,000/yr tuition fee, idea is to allow 2 year courses with 45 wks/yr (50% increase) and maximum of around £11,000/yr tuition fees (20% increase).
Why are fees any business of the government? Why not let the market decide?
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Nov 18, 2018 15:45:38 GMT
On the news today, plans to introduce 2 year degree courses. Rather than studying 3 years (@ 30 wks/yr?) at maximum of £9,000/yr tuition fee, idea is to allow 2 year courses with 45 wks/yr (50% increase) and maximum of around £11,000/yr tuition fees (20% increase).
Why are fees any business of the government? Why not let the market decide?
Confess I haven't read the article as of yet, but if you let the University fees market roam entirely free then what you'd end up with is very poor universities charging very little, and top-tier universities charging an absolute fortune. This works fine for the smartphone market, but many societies like the idea that the very bright should have some chance of going to good universities, even if they're not necessarily the wealthiest.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Nov 18, 2018 15:55:56 GMT
On the news today, plans to introduce 2 year degree courses. Rather than studying 3 years (@ 30 wks/yr?) at maximum of £9,000/yr tuition fee, idea is to allow 2 year courses with 45 wks/yr (50% increase) and maximum of around £11,000/yr tuition fees (20% increase).
Why are fees any business of the government? Why not let the market decide?
.., but many societies like the idea that the very bright should have some chance of going to good universities, even if they're not necessarily the wealthiest. l support that idea myself (having not come from money), but seems to be the case currently that those who earn relatively little after graduating never pay off the fees anyway (and I believe the debt is cancelled after something like 30 years). Suspect that would remain the case even if fees were higher.
The disgrace imo with the current system is the %APR charged by the government.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Nov 18, 2018 16:07:29 GMT
.., but many societies like the idea that the very bright should have some chance of going to good universities, even if they're not necessarily the wealthiest. l support that idea myself (having not come from money), but seems to be the case currently that those who earn relatively little after graduating never pay off the fees anyway (and I believe the debt is cancelled after something like 30 years). Suspect that would remain the case even if fees were higher.
The disgrace imo with the current system is the %APR charged by the government.
Totally agree. It's a tax for the less well-off in all but name. To think - I thought I was being ripped off paying £1,025 per year when I went because my dad was paid to go!
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Post by Ace on Nov 18, 2018 22:01:46 GMT
l support that idea myself (having not come from money), but seems to be the case currently that those who earn relatively little after graduating never pay off the fees anyway (and I believe the debt is cancelled after something like 30 years). Suspect that would remain the case even if fees were higher.
The disgrace imo with the current system is the %APR charged by the government.
Totally agree. It's a tax for the less well-off in all but name. To think - I thought I was being ripped off paying £1,025 per year when I went because my dad was paid to go! It could be argued that it is in fact the opposite of this. Only those that go on to have careers with high salaries will ever pay off the loan. Those with low or average salaries will have the loan cancelled after 30 years, so will never pay the tax.
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Nov 18, 2018 23:37:08 GMT
Why are fees any business of the government? Why not let the market decide? Because the government lends almost all of the fee money, so that seems reasonable. (Not saying it is a great policy.) It will be interesting to see what happens in a few years when a few of the top universities have expanded (UCL for example is roughly doubling in size over the next few years). The market might work a bit better and some of the the universities further down the rankings might have to drop their fees. It's a tax for the less well-off in all but name. To think - I thought I was being ripped off paying £1,025 per year when I went because my dad was paid to go! Again I have very mixed feelings about the policy, but I can't understand your point.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Nov 19, 2018 1:12:05 GMT
It's a tax for the less well-off in all but name. To think - I thought I was being ripped off paying £1,025 per year when I went because my dad was paid to go! Again I have very mixed feelings about the policy, but I can't understand your point. I just mean that due to higher fees than previous times coupled with high interest rates applied to the loans, in many cases the principal owed by the student starts to significantly increase rather than be paid off. As a result, the money they do pay is for most of the rest of their working lives is at a designated % rate, currently 9% over £25k, i.e. kinda like a tax. Although, yes, acknowledged that it's eventually written off after 30 years. Still, if you manage to get on a high salary in your 30's/40's, you're definitely going to feel a pinch. As per the article here , govt were quite keen on graduate tax around 2003-04 before "it became tangled up in the Blair-Brown rupture that so damaged Labour in office". I don't really feel strongly one way or another about the financing of it all, although these new 2 year courses sound like potentially a good idea to me.
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duck
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Post by duck on Nov 19, 2018 5:11:35 GMT
Totally agree. It's a tax for the less well-off in all but name. To think - I thought I was being ripped off paying £1,025 per year when I went because my dad was paid to go! It could be argued that it is in fact the opposite of this. Only those that go on to have careers with high salaries will ever pay off the loan. Those with low or average salaries will have the loan cancelled after 30 years, so will never pay the tax. I heard Martin Lewis talking about this on the radio some weeks ago. He said that when he was lobbying Parliament before the 'student loan' was introduced he said it should be called a 'graduate tax' because that was what it is. The response from g'ment was that the name was unacceptable since no g'ment could be seen to be introducing a new 'income tax'. So the name has been a political fudge sice day 1. Currently 3/4 of all student loans are expected not to be repaid fully and that figure is rising. HMG have been selling off the debt and the last 'sale' booked the g'ment a £900m loss. www.ft.com/content/df8b7c80-8a82-11e8-b18d-0181731a0340 Unlike P2P where we all feel the pain when we have a crystallised loss it is far easier to accept a big loss when it is other peoples money.
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yangmills
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Post by yangmills on Nov 19, 2018 8:39:16 GMT
Confess I haven't read the article as of yet, but if you let the University fees market roam entirely free then what you'd end up with is very poor universities charging very little, and top-tier universities charging an absolute fortune. This works fine for the smartphone market, but many societies like the idea that the very bright should have some chance of going to good universities, even if they're not necessarily the wealthiest. The problem is that the current UK system is resulting in fewer and fewer bright-but-poor kids getting into top unis. Yes, 20-25 years ago someone like myself from a comp, with parents who had no qualifications and did low-paid jobs could get into Oxbridge. It's clearly still possible but the hurdle rate is getting higher each year. I'm sceptical I would now get in given the much higher level of preparation needed and massively increased competition for each place from a global candidate set. Instead, what actually happens is that I pay for my children to go to the right private school; one that can pretty much guarantee Oxbridge entrance (success rate for applications is around 95%). These schools make sure all the boxes are ticked, coach them thoroughly for interviews and STEP entrance exams etc. So the system is already very biased against those from poor backgrounds. Counter-intuitively I actually think we need to allow our elite unis (probably 5, max 10) to go completely private and charge much higher fees, more comparable to Ivy League US univs (say $50k per year, with another $20k for living costs). First, the purpose of top universities is not teaching, but to do research. These unis need to allow staff to focus on research without too much distraction from lecturing. The obsessive focus on teaching quality and "value for money" has to stop; these are not businesses - they are meant to be ivory towers! Students that need to be "taught" really aren't good enough to be at top uni. Second, the US elite uni system works surprisingly well for the truly gifted since the large fees and alumni donatives have allowed these unis to build huge endowments. Those endowments mean that virtually nobody with ability actually pays more than 15% of the top-line fee number. Of course, if you're not gifted, you have to pay full whack. Essentially, mediocre rich kids (or their parents) pay for the smart poor kids to go to university.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Nov 19, 2018 9:10:40 GMT
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Nov 19, 2018 10:16:42 GMT
If the unverisity offers the same course for 2 years is £22000 in total, the 3 year course should be reduced to £7333 per year as they have the same credits. I think that sort of question is the heart of the matter. Should -the government pick criteria (say £s/credit delivered) and tell Unis how much they can charge, OR -should Unis pick any criteria they like to price a course, then leave it up to students (the consumers) to decide whether they're being "ripped off" by the pricing of a particular course.
I'd go with the latter. Other than government ensuring a degree is worthy of the name, I don't see any need for government to get involved in pricing. They claim they want a market in Uni places, they take action currently to stop a free market operating.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Nov 19, 2018 10:37:49 GMT
Of course there will be benefits for increasing the tuition fees for these accelerated degrees, it will boost UK GDP in the short term if more students studying these courses, also increasing the number of graduates per year as part of the nataional statistics.
The education industry likes to boost statistics by doing all kind of tricks. One of them is schools allowing year 9 to take GCSE exams to boost the grades of the borderline students in year 11, the year 9 students can resits GCSE Later on. These exams resits and markings also contribute a tiny portion of GDP as well.
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aj
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Post by aj on Nov 19, 2018 12:31:25 GMT
The government is providing the funding for fees through student loans. The maximum loan available to students needs to be able to cover fees and living costs for the 3/4 years of a degree.
If they don't cap maximum fees, what is to stop a university offering a degree with fees of £1,000,000/year but you get a free Ferrari with your course? Sounds a good deal if you are planning to take advantage of the loan write-off after 30 years.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Nov 19, 2018 13:39:30 GMT
The government is providing the funding for fees through student loans. The maximum loan available to students needs to be able to cover fees and living costs for the 3/4 years of a degree. If they don't cap maximum fees, what is to stop a university offering a degree with fees of £1,000,000/year but you get a free Ferrari with your course? Sounds a good deal if you are planning to take advantage of the loan write-off after 30 years. Good point. I was tempted to come back with "well, perhaps the limit should be more 'realistic', say £50K/yr". However, I suspect that as now all Unis would simply move to that maximum price point. Suggests to me that this model is simply broken, as it doesn't inject consumer comparison of price vs product quality. Perhaps we need to move to a true free market with no government interference.
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Godanubis
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Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
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Post by Godanubis on Nov 19, 2018 17:05:48 GMT
Don’t worry JC junior will offer to give it all free if you vote him in. Alternately come here to bonnie Scotland and after 3 yrs residency you can get it free
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