optimist
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Post by optimist on Aug 13, 2020 20:05:48 GMT
Does the "my analytics - Events history" graph work for anyone? Mine always shows a spike of returns on the last day, as does the table below it
I believe the spike on the last day is because the last day includes all the accrued, but not paid, interest. In my case, only around 10% of the promised interest has actually been paid, with the rest in this spike. It's a little concerning, as this looks to me as though the lend-to-ourselves lending (the "medium term loans") are not actually paying in instalments, as I believe they should be doing according to the agreement. Could somebody else run the figures they see in the Key Loan Terms of the loan agreement against a repayment calculator - if I do this, using the quoted amount lent, duration and APR and using monthly repayments, the total amount paid more-or-less matches the total shown in the agreement. If the loan isn't paying down monthly, either the APR should be a lot lower, or the total amount should be a lot higher? It's also a little odd to me that (on the loan I was looking at which is over a year old) that not a single "slice" of the loan has been replaced (sold on the secondary market) given the numerous people on these forums reporting that they've tried to sell up/withdraw. Paul. I don't think this can be the case on my account. I've generally recieved around 10% interest which dropped to around 4% in the past 3 months but not 1% and not for the whole year. The account summary page shows current return and total return. I would think that "current" is actual received and "total" is what was expected, though the pop up for both is the same - they both have the help "Total Return: Interest earnings (£x) plus any additional earnings (£x). Neither amounts match or are as great as the total "live data from live loans with sussessful repayments" shown in event history. If the live amount that includes successful loans is greater than the total amount though again I'm lost... I had another interesting chat with the owner today who says there is some good news and it sounded as this would be significant for people trying to withdraw money. @ Ace - can you confirm whether there's been an announcement on Seedrs regarding some significant external investment in the platform? That could result in significant changes in withdrawal timesWe discussed and agreed that some info on the site is incorrect, he said he'd look into it and that there's been some significant work going on behind the scenes that came to fruition a week ago in a deal for additional funding, details of which are not public yet. See above. This should result in some significant changes in the next few weeks. Another interesting point for this discussion was that apparently sales of loans accumulate funds which are paid in increments of 20% of the total. This is Fund Ourselves policy but is not documented anywhere, IE they won't hold on to more than 20% of the requested amount though there can be smaller payments.
Edit - I now have serious doubts - please consider all optimistic opinions as optimisitic and see overall impressions thread 24/10/20
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Aug 13, 2020 20:17:39 GMT
I believe the spike on the last day is because the last day includes all the accrued, but not paid, interest. In my case, only around 10% of the promised interest has actually been paid, with the rest in this spike. It's a little concerning, as this looks to me as though the lend-to-ourselves lending (the "medium term loans") are not actually paying in instalments, as I believe they should be doing according to the agreement. Could somebody else run the figures they see in the Key Loan Terms of the loan agreement against a repayment calculator - if I do this, using the quoted amount lent, duration and APR and using monthly repayments, the total amount paid more-or-less matches the total shown in the agreement. If the loan isn't paying down monthly, either the APR should be a lot lower, or the total amount should be a lot higher? It's also a little odd to me that (on the loan I was looking at which is over a year old) that not a single "slice" of the loan has been replaced (sold on the secondary market) given the numerous people on these forums reporting that they've tried to sell up/withdraw. Paul. I don't think this can be the case on my account. I've generally recieved around 10% interest which dropped to around 4% in the past 3 months but not 1% and not for the whole year. The account summary page shows current return and total return. I would think that "current" is actual received and "total" is what was expected, though the pop up for both is the same - they both have the help "Total Return: Interest earnings (£x) plus any additional earnings (£x). Neither amounts match or are as great as the total "live data from live loans with sussessful repayments" shown in event history. If the live amount that includes successful loans is greater than the total amount though again I'm lost... I had another interesting chat with the owner today who says there is some good news and it sounded as this would be significant for people trying to withdraw money. @ Ace - can you confirm whether there's been an announcement on Seedrs regarding some significant external investment in the platform?We discussed and agreed that some info on the site is incorrect, he said he'd look into it and that there's been some significant work going on behind the scenes that came to fruition a week ago in a deal for additional funding, details of which are not public yet. See above. This should result in some significant changes in the next few weeks. Another interesting point for this discussion was that apparently sales of loans accumulate funds which are paid in increments of 20% of the total. This is Fund Ourselves policy but is not documented anywhere. There are sometimes additional amounts paid depending on individual circumstances etc but the chunks of 20% seemed pertinent to the discussion I have had complete email silence to my queries. And waiting 9 months and counting for a withdrawal. To misquote Pulp Fiction, that would have to be one charming mother****ing piece of good news.
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Post by Ace on Aug 13, 2020 20:28:25 GMT
I believe the spike on the last day is because the last day includes all the accrued, but not paid, interest. In my case, only around 10% of the promised interest has actually been paid, with the rest in this spike. It's a little concerning, as this looks to me as though the lend-to-ourselves lending (the "medium term loans") are not actually paying in instalments, as I believe they should be doing according to the agreement. Could somebody else run the figures they see in the Key Loan Terms of the loan agreement against a repayment calculator - if I do this, using the quoted amount lent, duration and APR and using monthly repayments, the total amount paid more-or-less matches the total shown in the agreement. If the loan isn't paying down monthly, either the APR should be a lot lower, or the total amount should be a lot higher? It's also a little odd to me that (on the loan I was looking at which is over a year old) that not a single "slice" of the loan has been replaced (sold on the secondary market) given the numerous people on these forums reporting that they've tried to sell up/withdraw. Paul. I don't think this can be the case on my account. I've generally recieved around 10% interest which dropped to around 4% in the past 3 months but not 1% and not for the whole year. The account summary page shows current return and total return. I would think that "current" is actual received and "total" is what was expected, though the pop up for both is the same - they both have the help "Total Return: Interest earnings (£x) plus any additional earnings (£x). Neither amounts match or are as great as the total "live data from live loans with sussessful repayments" shown in event history. If the live amount that includes successful loans is greater than the total amount though again I'm lost... I had another interesting chat with the owner today who says there is some good news and it sounded as this would be significant for people trying to withdraw money. @ Ace - can you confirm whether there's been an announcement on Seedrs regarding some significant external investment in the platform? That could result in significant changes in withdrawal timesWe discussed and agreed that some info on the site is incorrect, he said he'd look into it and that there's been some significant work going on behind the scenes that came to fruition a week ago in a deal for additional funding, details of which are not public yet. See above. This should result in some significant changes in the next few weeks. Another interesting point for this discussion was that apparently sales of loans accumulate funds which are paid in increments of 20% of the total. This is Fund Ourselves policy but is not documented anywhere, IE they won't hold on to more than 20% of the requested amount though there can be smaller payments. Hi optimist , thanks for sharing. I can confirm that there was a recent update on Seedrs for FO. I wasn't notified that it was there, so have only just looked due to your prompting. Sorry, but I don't think I'm allowed to divulge the contents. Hopefully the main man that you've been talking to will post on here to update his long suffering investors. I have no idea what the 20% thing is all about, it doesn't appear to have applied to my account.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Aug 13, 2020 21:24:15 GMT
The final day uptick on the event page is the accrued interest on live loans, currently accounts for an extra 50% interest for me. No idea if Ill actually get it as FO seems have stopped paying accrued interest each month at some point, probably at the same time that I stopped actually investing in any loans. But they are still paying me 5% for nothing.
Given they seem unable to deploy the funds on the platform already not sure what they will do with the Seedrs news. Update of course is vague in its terminology but then pretty much what ive come to expect. So much for the nonsense about the SM and no reason for the shares not to be eligible.
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Post by sayyestocress on Aug 14, 2020 9:22:11 GMT
no reason for the shares not to be eligible. I would have thought the Seedrs update would mean the share price could be affected and hence the ineligibility on the sm.
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optimist
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Post by optimist on Aug 14, 2020 15:28:22 GMT
I had another interesting chat with the owner today who says there is some good news and it sounded as this would be significant for people trying to withdraw money. @ Ace - can you confirm whether there's been an announcement on Seedrs regarding some significant external investment in the platform? That could result in significant changes in withdrawal timesApparently sales of loans accumulate funds are paid in increments of 20% of the total. This is Fund Ourselves policy but is not documented anywhere, IE they won't hold on to more than 20% of the requested amount though there can be smaller payments. Hi optimist , thanks for sharing. I can confirm that there was a recent update on Seedrs for FO. I wasn't notified that it was there, so have only just looked due to your prompting. Sorry, but I don't think I'm allowed to divulge the contents. Hopefully the main man that you've been talking to will post on here to update his long suffering investors. I have no idea what the 20% thing is all about, it doesn't appear to have applied to my account. Ace Thanks for the confirmation. I asked him about what was public and he said a deal was made last week for a signicant investment from a large reputable organisation which should allow expansion of the platoform to many times the current total.
He said that individual investors would have priority when purchasing loans. I imagine that with the additional funds available, getting out should be much faster. Remaining cautiously optimistic and watching closely.
I suggested that the 20% thing should be documented, as a less scrupulous business could borrow £1 and then hold on to all of someone's investment within their Ts&Cs othewise and I like to at least consider the worst case scenario. ilmoro . I have 93% of my12 month profits total showing as arriving today. This is simply not the case. Actual received money has dropped to 40% of expected for the past 3 months, not 93% loss for 12 months. I am sure the info is wrong for my account. As it's automated and not everyone sees the same thing I assume it's something they haven't tested. My working hypothesis is that because I have 14 investments it shows only one investment over the year but the total in today's total. Software/website bug. May start a bug list on a new thread. Also, I'm 95% invested so they can invest the money but I had to kick them by starting a withdrawal before their "automated" system placed most of my money a couple of days later.
Edit - I now have serious doubts - please consider all optimistic opinions as optimisitic and see overall impressions thread 24/10/20
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Aug 14, 2020 17:37:43 GMT
Hi optimist , thanks for sharing. I can confirm that there was a recent update on Seedrs for FO. I wasn't notified that it was there, so have only just looked due to your prompting. Sorry, but I don't think I'm allowed to divulge the contents. Hopefully the main man that you've been talking to will post on here to update his long suffering investors. I have no idea what the 20% thing is all about, it doesn't appear to have applied to my account. Ace Thanks for the confirmation. I asked him about what was public and he said a deal was made last week for a signicant investment from a large reputable organisation which should allow expansion of the platoform to many times the current total.
He said that individual investors would have priority when purchasing loans. I imagine that with the additional funds available, getting out should be much faster. Remaining cautiously optimistic and watching closely.
I suggested that the 20% thing should be documented, as a less scrupulous business could borrow £1 and then hold on to all of someone's investment within their Ts&Cs othewise and I like to at least consider the worst case scenario. ilmoro . I have 93% of my12 month profits total showing as arriving today. This is simply not the case. Actual received money has dropped to 40% of expected for the past 3 months, not 93% loss for 12 months. I am sure the info is wrong for my account. As it's automated and not everyone sees the same thing I assume it's something they haven't tested. My working hypothesis is that because I have 14 investments it shows only one investment over the year but the total in today's total. Software/website bug. May start a bug list on a new thread. Also, I'm 95% invested so they can invest the money but I had to kick them by starting a withdrawal before their "automated" system placed most of my money a couple of days later.
All I can say is if I add up the interest from non-completed loans on my live loans (ie accrued interest) it totals exactly the difference between the interest received on the date of the last loan payment and the interest total displayed for today. (This excludes any additional earnings) I have no faith in FO figures as they include accrued interest in total earned and possibly XIRR calculations
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optimist
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Post by optimist on Aug 14, 2020 20:26:49 GMT
ilmoro . I have 93% of my12 month profits total showing as arriving today. This is simply not the case. Actual received money has dropped to 40% of expected for the past 3 months, not 93% loss for 12 months. I am sure the info is wrong for my account. As it's automated and not everyone sees the same thing I assume it's something they haven't tested. My working hypothesis is that because I have 14 investments it shows only one investment over the year but the total in today's total. Software/website bug. May start a bug list on a new thread. Also, I'm 95% invested so they can invest the money but I had to kick them by starting a withdrawal before their "automated" system placed most of my money a couple of days later. All I can say is if I add up the interest from non-completed loans on my live loans (ie accrued interest) it totals exactly the difference between the interest received on the date of the last loan payment and the interest total displayed for today. (This excludes any additional earnings) I have no faith in FO figures as they include accrued interest in total earned and possibly XIRR calculations Thanks Ilmoro,
OK, so it seems that the graph and table show the running total of completed loans, except for the last point on the graph which is the total accrued interest on loans and incorrectly labelled as "Live data. Including interest from live loans with successful repayments".
Struggling to see who would find this helpful information. regardless, please. FO label your graphs, "this is a graph of ... showing ..."
I would think that it would be more useful to show the amount recieved against expected. If we assume the platform is intended to make us money it might be good to see how much money we're making - mutter mutter mutter grumble etc.
Assuming that's my conclusion is correct and that the pop up is wrong and should read "one box of unhatched chickens" plus graph of ex-chickens with no tracking of actual chooks, then the greyed out total seems to tally up with the account summary front page value which can be found hidden in another pop up. "Total returns" AKA "Total Earnings: Interest earnings (£same number here) plus any additional earnings (£magic unexplained bonuses). There is a line "current return" which appears to be the amount actually received rather than owed. I couldn't find this number anywhere else but my investment plus current return is close-ish to the investment balance. None of this explains why I have 14 investments with XIRRs of 12% and an overall varying on a weekly basis from 7-8% (surely it's the average) nor why the actual increase in balance has stopped rising in the past three months if late payments are better than normal. Still, thanks, it makes a little more sense though the info in the graph is less useful that expected rather than wrong per se. I'm sure all will become clear in my next discussion with the boss next week
Edit - I now have serious doubts - please consider all optimistic opinions as optimisitic and see overall impressions thread 24/10/20
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Aug 15, 2020 7:19:41 GMT
This is all well and good but I am stuck earning zero interest (because I made a withdrawal request) yet unable to withdraw any cash despite the vast majority of underlying loans having been repaid because they say they won't repay any money until all loans are repaid. Yet the remaining loans have no visible end date and may in fact be loans to the platform itself. Thus, they could decide to never end the loans and never repay the money, which I fear is the end game strategy. The lack of transparency is glaring.
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Post by Ace on Aug 15, 2020 9:28:24 GMT
This is all well and good but I am stuck earning zero interest (because I made a withdrawal request) yet unable to withdraw any cash despite the vast majority of underlying loans having been repaid because they say they won't repay any money until all loans are repaid. Yet the remaining loans have no visible end date and may in fact be loans to the platform itself. Thus, they could decide to never end the loans and never repay the money, which I fear is the end game strategy. The lack of transparency is glaring. I'm in the same position as you. I don't understand why you say that loan's don't have a visible end date. Even the loans to FO themselves do have end dates in the contract, albeit they are 5 year loans.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Aug 15, 2020 10:19:48 GMT
This is all well and good but I am stuck earning zero interest (because I made a withdrawal request) yet unable to withdraw any cash despite the vast majority of underlying loans having been repaid because they say they won't repay any money until all loans are repaid. Yet the remaining loans have no visible end date and may in fact be loans to the platform itself. Thus, they could decide to never end the loans and never repay the money, which I fear is the end game strategy. The lack of transparency is glaring. I'm in the same position as you. I don't understand why you say that loan's don't have a visible end date. Even the loans to FO themselves do have end dates in the contract, albeit they are 5 year loans. Yes, you are right, i eventually found loan terms deep in the loan agreement, just not in the loan summaries where one might expect it to be displayed next to loan start date. So the upshot is that they wont give me any money back, nor any interest, for at least 5 years. I may get it back at 5 years IF the loans repay on time. If just one loan doesn't repay, and the discretionary PF cannot or decides not to buy it, I may well never get any of the money back even though it should be sitting in a separate client account somewhere. And some of the loans are to themselves, so they can decide when and how (and whether) to repay. This screams conflict of interest and unfair terms to me. A huge caveat emptor to anyone considering FO.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 15, 2020 10:31:52 GMT
I'm in the same position as you. I don't understand why you say that loan's don't have a visible end date. Even the loans to FO themselves do have end dates in the contract, albeit they are 5 year loans. Yes, you are right, i eventually found loan terms deep in the loan agreement, just not in the loan summaries where one might expect it to be displayed next to loan start date. So the upshot is that they wont give me any money back, nor any interest, for at least 5 years. I may get it back at 5 years IF the loans repay on time. If just one loan doesn't repay, and the discretionary PF cannot or decides not to buy it, I may well never get any of the money back even though it should be sitting in a separate client account somewhere. And some of the loans are to themselves, so they can decide when and how (and whether) to repay. This screams conflict of interest and unfair terms to me. A huge caveat emptor to anyone considering FO. If you don't mind, I'll summarise the advice: Run for the hills !
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optimist
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Post by optimist on Aug 15, 2020 13:00:06 GMT
I'm in the same position as you. I don't understand why you say that loan's don't have a visible end date. Even the loans to FO themselves do have end dates in the contract, albeit they are 5 year loans. Yes, you are right, i eventually found loan terms deep in the loan agreement, just not in the loan summaries where one might expect it to be displayed next to loan start date. So the upshot is that they wont give me any money back, nor any interest, for at least 5 years. I may get it back at 5 years IF the loans repay on time. If just one loan doesn't repay, and the discretionary PF cannot or decides not to buy it, I may well never get any of the money back even though it should be sitting in a separate client account somewhere. And some of the loans are to themselves, so they can decide when and how (and whether) to repay. This screams conflict of interest and unfair terms to me. A huge caveat emptor to anyone considering FO. This is the reason I mentioned the 20% policy in my previous post and feel it's important that FO confrim this in writing for everyone's benefit.
The discussion with the owner went something along the lines of: Fund Ourselves may be well intentioned, and you may be an honest person but there are companies out there that are not. I have no way of confirming how you will operate if you don't put something in writing.
What's to stop you from loaning yourself £1 for 5 years so you can hang on to my money for all that time. This would be acceptable according to your published terms and conditions.
His response was: Fund Ourselves has a policy of paying back the money recieved in lumps of 20% of the total amount requested to be withdrawn. This is a Fund Ourselves internal policy and is not published anywhere but it ensures that what you're describing can't happen. To which I responded: I'd like to see that in writing as I consider a worst case when I am thinking about my investments.
He went on to explain that lots of money will be forthcoming from an external investor so everyone who wants to gets out should be able to do so really soon, none of this will be a problem etc which is great.
I confirmed my conversation in writing back to the owner and FO helpdesk. I consider this a statement from the owner of a Fund Ourselves policy and a commitment to operate in this way when returning my money.
I don't have any significant legal training but would think this verbal commitment means something
I have switched all loans to short term only. Providing free money to a company that takes the earned interest for 5 years (say and average of 2.5yrs) is difficult to justify financially as a lender.
The chance of a successful secondary market sale is a % chance which is factored in for me.
No other platform that I invest in takes the interest from the point of trying to withdraw (FC, RBS, ABL, CrowdStacker). Short term, if the money arrives we're probably fine, longer term I'd like to see some changes. Better info & conditions in the event of withdrawing money. Having said that, average loan duration this year is 126 days if you believe the stats so this may be less of a problem
Edit - I now have serious doubts - please consider all optimistic opinions as optimisitic and see overall impressions thread 24/10/20
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Aug 15, 2020 13:58:52 GMT
Yes, you are right, i eventually found loan terms deep in the loan agreement, just not in the loan summaries where one might expect it to be displayed next to loan start date. So the upshot is that they wont give me any money back, nor any interest, for at least 5 years. I may get it back at 5 years IF the loans repay on time. If just one loan doesn't repay, and the discretionary PF cannot or decides not to buy it, I may well never get any of the money back even though it should be sitting in a separate client account somewhere. And some of the loans are to themselves, so they can decide when and how (and whether) to repay. This screams conflict of interest and unfair terms to me. A huge caveat emptor to anyone considering FO. This is the reason I mentioned the 20% policy in my previous post and feel it's important that FO confrim this in writing for everyone's benefit.
The discussion with the owner went something along the lines of: Fund Ourselves may be well intentioned, and you may be an honest person but there are companies out there that are not. I have no way of confirming how you will operate if you don't put something in writing.
What's to stop you from loaning yourself £1 for 5 years so you can hang on to my money for all that time. This would be acceptable according to your published terms and conditions.
His response was: Fund Ourselves has a policy of paying back the money recieved in lumps of 20% of the total amount requested to be withdrawn. This is a Fund Ourselves internal policy and is not published anywhere but it ensures that what you're describing can't happen. To which I responded: I'd like to see that in writing as I consider a worst case when I am thinking about my investments.
He went on to explain that lots of money will be forthcoming from an external investor so everyone who wants to gets out should be able to do so really soon, none of this will be a problem etc which is great.
I confirmed my conversation in writing back to the owner and FO helpdesk. I consider this a statement from the owner of a Fund Ourselves policy and a commitment to operate in this way when returning my money.
I don't have any significant legal training but would think this verbal commitment means something
I have switched all loans to short term only. Providing free money to a company that takes the earned interest for 5 years (say and average of 2.5yrs) is difficult to justify financially as a lender.
The chance of a successful secondary market sale is a % chance which is factored in for me.
No other platform that I invest in takes the interest from the point of trying to withdraw (FC, RBS, ABL, CrowdStacker). Short term, if the money arrives we're probably fine, longer term I'd like to see some changes. Better info & conditions in the event of withdrawing money. Having said that, average loan duration this year is 126 days if you believe the stats so this may be less of a problem
The 20% has not been applied to me, whatever the owner says - I have 80% sitting there as cash for 9 months that they won't give to me. And regardless of the 126 day average, I have 20% in loans that have not budged for months with terms up to 5 years. If I were a new investor I would not touch this operation with a socially distanced bargepole.
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Aug 15, 2020 14:16:33 GMT
This is the reason I mentioned the 20% policy in my previous post and feel it's important that FO confrim this in writing for everyone's benefit.
The discussion with the owner went something along the lines of: Fund Ourselves may be well intentioned, and you may be an honest person but there are companies out there that are not. I have no way of confirming how you will operate if you don't put something in writing.
What's to stop you from loaning yourself £1 for 5 years so you can hang on to my money for all that time. This would be acceptable according to your published terms and conditions.
His response was: Fund Ourselves has a policy of paying back the money recieved in lumps of 20% of the total amount requested to be withdrawn. This is a Fund Ourselves internal policy and is not published anywhere but it ensures that what you're describing can't happen. To which I responded: I'd like to see that in writing as I consider a worst case when I am thinking about my investments.
He went on to explain that lots of money will be forthcoming from an external investor so everyone who wants to gets out should be able to do so really soon, none of this will be a problem etc which is great.
I confirmed my conversation in writing back to the owner and FO helpdesk. I consider this a statement from the owner of a Fund Ourselves policy and a commitment to operate in this way when returning my money.
I don't have any significant legal training but would think this verbal commitment means something
I have switched all loans to short term only. Providing free money to a company that takes the earned interest for 5 years (say and average of 2.5yrs) is difficult to justify financially as a lender.
The chance of a successful secondary market sale is a % chance which is factored in for me.
No other platform that I invest in takes the interest from the point of trying to withdraw (FC, RBS, ABL, CrowdStacker). Short term, if the money arrives we're probably fine, longer term I'd like to see some changes. Better info & conditions in the event of withdrawing money. Having said that, average loan duration this year is 126 days if you believe the stats so this may be less of a problem
The 20% has not been applied to me, whatever the owner says - I have 80% sitting there as cash for 9 months that they won't give to me. And regardless of the 126 day average, I have 20% in loans that have not budged for months with terms up to 5 years. If I were a new investor I would not touch this operation with a socially distanced bargepole. I suspect your (and my) money is not sitting there as cash, but being held hostage to prop up an incompetent business. They never had enough borrowers to be viable and will have very few investors interested in investing more if they do get a market share. Maybe not illegal but certainly morally bankrupt behavior from a company that refuses to engage in communication with its lenders. Obviously any potential future investors should do their own due diligence. The owner brands us as 'competitors making false statements to ruin his business' or something like that from memory.
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