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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2019 7:15:47 GMT
None of us have experience of our own species extinction... Will we prove to be slowly boiled frogs or will we jump out of the water and turn the gas off? I think we will prove to be too stupid and will remain arguing about Porsche while the CO2 climbs. This is a subject where having ignorance is not an option. Not even "wait and see" makes any sense. Londoners were regularly extinguished in the 50's winters and now there is an improvement. It took a decade to control those emissions, so vehicle legislation should kick in an improvement soon. ( Being that old I can assert that the local conditions were much more severe, but with less population to suffer them). It may surprise some that Londoners are not a seperate species...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2019 7:24:23 GMT
3 billion Chinese & Indians with a western lifestyle aspirations. Climate change will only go one way. Even if everyone in the UK takes a blue pill.
Until population control in every country is imposed nothing is going to change. Hope you like the taste of Soylent Green or live under communism.
A bit defeatest.
Also a bit simplistic.
The benefit of more safety net lifestyles is that families become smaller, so much research on this
At the moment the largest growing group are ...the middle aged, again so much research on this
The middle aged are not really large consumers (it is people having babies and children who consume stuff)
Just blaming it on other people, so we don't need to do any thing...
The other danger is sources like the Daily Mail who tell us things like "The Chinese are building a new coal power station every week", they were. Now the real danger is the Indonesians.... This website actually pinpoints the serious problems and where are efforts should be placed, forget Brexit, get onto onto your MP and lobby for the UK to try and stop these www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-coal-power-plants
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 25, 2019 7:48:00 GMT
3 billion Chinese & Indians with a western lifestyle aspirations. Climate change will only go one way. Even if everyone in the UK takes a blue pill.
Until population control in every country is imposed nothing is going to change.
It's not as simple as "Chinese and Indians". But, yes, why shouldn't the developing world - all of it - aspire to what the developed world already has? Is the majority of the world's population, people you hand-wave away as "Chinese and Indians", any less deserving of a particular quality of life than you are, just because you happened to get lucky in where you were born? Many millions of lives have been lifted above the daily struggle to simply remain alive, through both food and medicine, while modern technology's made it so much easier to see how others live. The rising population isn't because of rising birth rates, it's because of falling mortality. Isn't that a good thing? Of course a reduction in birth rates is going to lag behind in the short- to medium-term. The world clearly can't support the entire population living at "Western" levels. So, yes, those of us who are consuming WAY above our proportion need to cut down, if the average isn't going to rise markedly just because those at the other end of the range are moving near the middle. It's simple selfishness to suggest anything else, isn't it?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 25, 2019 7:50:37 GMT
Londoners were regularly extinguished in the 50's winters and now there is an improvement. It took a decade to control those emissions, so vehicle legislation should kick in an improvement soon. ( Being that old I can assert that the local conditions were much more severe, but with less population to suffer them). London's population was higher from the 30s to the 50s than it is now.
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jj
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Post by jj on Apr 25, 2019 7:58:02 GMT
3 billion Chinese & Indians with a western lifestyle aspirations. Climate change will only go one way. Even if everyone in the UK takes a blue pill.
Until population control in every country is imposed nothing is going to change.
It's not as simple as "Chinese and Indians". But, yes, why shouldn't the developing world - all of it - aspire to what the developed world already has? Is the majority of the world's population, people you hand-wave away as "Chinese and Indians", any less deserving of a particular quality of life than you are, just because you happened to get lucky in where you were born? Many millions of lives have been lifted above the daily struggle to simply remain alive, through both food and medicine, while modern technology's made it so much easier to see how others live. The rising population isn't because of rising birth rates, it's because of falling mortality. Isn't that a good thing? Of course a reduction in birth rates is going to lag behind in the short- to medium-term. The world clearly can't support the entire population living at "Western" levels. So, yes, those of us who are consuming WAY above our proportion need to cut down, if the average isn't going to rise markedly just because those at the other end of the range are moving near the middle. It's simple selfishness to suggest anything else, isn't it? Eh. I didn't say they were less deserving. So stop putting your slant on things that are not there.
A bit like your poll. Trying to prove that Brexiteers are stupid and denying climate change really.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 25, 2019 8:08:21 GMT
3 billion Chinese & Indians with a western lifestyle aspirations. Climate change will only go one way. Even if everyone in the UK takes a blue pill. Until population control in every country is imposed nothing is going to change. It's not as simple as "Chinese and Indians". But, yes, why shouldn't the developing world - all of it - aspire to what the developed world already has? Is the majority of the world's population, people you hand-wave away as "Chinese and Indians", any less deserving of a particular quality of life than you are, just because you happened to get lucky in where you were born? Many millions of lives have been lifted above the daily struggle to simply remain alive, through both food and medicine, while modern technology's made it so much easier to see how others live. The rising population isn't because of rising birth rates, it's because of falling mortality. Isn't that a good thing? Of course a reduction in birth rates is going to lag behind in the short- to medium-term. The world clearly can't support the entire population living at "Western" levels. So, yes, those of us who are consuming WAY above our proportion need to cut down, if the average isn't going to rise markedly just because those at the other end of the range are moving near the middle. It's simple selfishness to suggest anything else, isn't it? Eh. I didn't say they were less deserving. Great. So we agree that the problem isn't the "3 billion Chinese and Indians" trying to get nearer average consumption - but the unsustainability of where the average consumption currently lies, let alone where it'll move to as the developing world moves towards our nice comfy, complacent developed-world levels of massive overconsumption. FWIW, China and India have huge internal inequalities, sure, but on average they're more like the global middle-classes. IIWY, I'd ask for a refund for that "psychic abilities for dummies" book.
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jj
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Post by jj on Apr 25, 2019 8:12:44 GMT
Eh. I didn't say they were less deserving. Great. So we agree that the problem isn't the "3 billion Chinese and Indians" trying to get nearer average consumption - but the unsustainability of where the average consumption currently lies, let alone where it'll move to as the developing world moves towards our nice comfy, complacent developed-world levels of massive overconsumption. FWIW, China and India have huge internal inequalities, sure, but on average they're more like the global middle-classes. IIWY, I'd ask for a refund for that "psychic abilities for dummies" book. You don't get points for insults either. 
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Apr 25, 2019 8:15:13 GMT
Article ( here) "Dare to declare capitalism dead – before it takes us all down with it" by George Monbiot stating "The economic system is incompatible with the survival of life on Earth. It is time to design a new one"
No specific solution proposed but a mention of Ecological Civilization by Jeremy Lent. I found this, "An ecological civilisation isn't just an ideal any more - it's a survival strategy". Reads a little like communism "Economic systems would be based on respect for individual dignity and fairly rewarding each person’s contribution to the greater good", so that's never going to work.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 25, 2019 8:17:22 GMT
Great. So we agree that the problem isn't the "3 billion Chinese and Indians" trying to get nearer average consumption - but the unsustainability of where the average consumption currently lies, let alone where it'll move to as the developing world moves towards our nice comfy, complacent developed-world levels of massive overconsumption. FWIW, China and India have huge internal inequalities, sure, but on average they're more like the global middle-classes. IIWY, I'd ask for a refund for that "psychic abilities for dummies" book. You don't get points for insults. What insult? Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the series of books in question? My apologies. www.amazon.co.uk/For-Dummies-Book-Store/b?node=10917681
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2019 8:23:59 GMT
Londoners were regularly extinguished in the 50's winters and now there is an improvement. It took a decade to control those emissions, so vehicle legislation should kick in an improvement soon. ( Being that old I can assert that the local conditions were much more severe, but with less population to suffer them). London's population was higher from the 30s to the 50s than it is now.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 25, 2019 8:29:37 GMT
I gladly sit corrected. It's now back to being about the same, after being smaller for the intervening decades.
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kaya
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Post by kaya on Apr 25, 2019 8:42:43 GMT
The Georgia Guidestones states the answer. The catch is, its us 'they' want to cull!
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Apr 25, 2019 8:58:05 GMT
The Georgia Guidestones states the answer. The catch is, its us 'they' want to cull! Rule 1 "Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature." - let me guess, the first 300m will be Americans. Rule 2 "Guide reproduction wisely — improving fitness and diversity" - Eugenics!!, got a bit of a bad press IIRC.
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Post by captainconfident on Apr 25, 2019 9:11:19 GMT
Article ( here) "Dare to declare capitalism dead – before it takes us all down with it" by George Monbiot stating "The economic system is incompatible with the survival of life on Earth. It is time to design a new one"
No specific solution proposed but a mention of Ecological Civilization by Jeremy Lent. I found this, "An ecological civilisation isn't just an ideal any more - it's a survival strategy". Reads a little like communism "Economic systems would be based on respect for individual dignity and fairly rewarding each person’s contribution to the greater good", so that's never going to work. What you seem to be saying is "I can see that my house is on fire, but I would not contemplate any of the options of spraying water on it in case it spoils any of my precious possessions".
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Apr 25, 2019 9:18:04 GMT
Article ( here) "Dare to declare capitalism dead – before it takes us all down with it" by George Monbiot stating "The economic system is incompatible with the survival of life on Earth. It is time to design a new one"
No specific solution proposed but a mention of Ecological Civilization by Jeremy Lent. I found this, "An ecological civilisation isn't just an ideal any more - it's a survival strategy". Reads a little like communism "Economic systems would be based on respect for individual dignity and fairly rewarding each person’s contribution to the greater good", so that's never going to work. What you seem to be saying is "I can see that my house is on fire, but I would not contemplate any of the options of spraying water on it in case it spoils any of my precious possessions". Not at all, happy to contemplate options that stand a chance but history suggests that won't be communism as it conflicts so much with mankind's basic greed. Democratic capitalism should be able to deliver solutions - e.g. as it does in times of war - without going over to communism. I think some journalists have anti-capitalist agendas lurking behind the eco-warrior bit, but - to be fair - I have a pro-capitalist agenda.
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