michaelc
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Post by michaelc on May 16, 2019 13:03:07 GMT
Unfortunately the PM who was head of the government that said all that resigned, and we have had a general election since then with new pledges. No party won a majority, including the Tories who ran explicitly on leaving SM and CU. No government can bind its successors. Democracy isn't a one off event, and a democracy that can't change its mind ceases to be a democracy (arch Leaver David Davis said that btw). Yes that's true. You elect an MP and he becomes an MP. If you don't like him/her you elect another MP next time. You have a referendum, you implement it. If you don't like it then some time in the future you have another. In that order.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on May 16, 2019 13:25:29 GMT
Unfortunately the PM who was head of the government that said all that resigned, and we have had a general election since then with new pledges. No party won a majority, including the Tories who ran explicitly on leaving SM and CU. No government can bind its successors. Democracy isn't a one off event, and a democracy that can't change its mind ceases to be a democracy (arch Leaver David Davis said that btw). Yes that's true. You elect an MP and he becomes an MP. If you don't like him/her you elect another MP next time. You have a referendum, you implement it. If you don't like it then some time in the future you have another. In that order. Interesting article in the Guardian today ( here) about erosion of trust in democracies (example given of Brexit Britain and Weimar Germany is a stretch imo).
"Theresa May, seeking to bring back her Brexit bill to MPs next month with little prospect of success, seems fated simply to add another layer to the bedrock of contempt by doing so. In Germany a century ago they fell out of love with parliament, with terrible consequences. In Britain today we seem to be doing the same, and without grasping what could be at stake."
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 16, 2019 13:27:19 GMT
Unfortunately the PM who was head of the government that said all that resigned, and we have had a general election since then with new pledges. No party won a majority, including the Tories who ran explicitly on leaving SM and CU. No government can bind its successors. Democracy isn't a one off event, and a democracy that can't change its mind ceases to be a democracy (arch Leaver David Davis said that btw). Yes that's true. You elect an MP and he becomes an MP. If you don't like him/her you elect another MP next time. 2010, 2015, 2017 1975, 2016 - 2019? Anyway, if we think Widdecombe's attempts to impose her morality on millions isn't fair game, we can always go back to looking at The Brexit Party's NHS manifesto.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on May 16, 2019 14:26:12 GMT
Unfortunately the PM who was head of the government that said all that resigned, and we have had a general election since then with new pledges. No party won a majority, including the Tories who ran explicitly on leaving SM and CU. No government can bind its successors. Democracy isn't a one off event, and a democracy that can't change its mind ceases to be a democracy (arch Leaver David Davis said that btw). Yes that's true. You elect an MP and he becomes an MP. If you don't like him/her you elect another MP next time. You have a referendum, you implement it. If you don't like it then some time in the future you have another. In that order. Not sure how you implement the 2016 vote when not even the Leavers agree what it actually means in practice, and many of them voted against the only leave deal on offer. Furthermore, at no time was a no deal Brexit campaigned for in the referendum, so doing that now (as Farage suggests) would not be implementing the referendum result. Really, dumbing it down to "just leave" does our great country a misservice.
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on May 16, 2019 14:38:00 GMT
Anyway, if we think Widdecombe's attempts to impose her morality on millions isn't fair game, we can always go back to looking at The Brexit Party's NHS manifesto. I assume that's the journalist who seems to argue in favour of moving towards a system borrowing from European health systems? Irony? Do we know who these poster chaps are or are they hiding unchallengeable behind anonymity? I assume they are complying with electoral law on third party campaigning?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 16, 2019 14:42:15 GMT
Anyway, if we think Widdecombe's attempts to impose her morality on millions isn't fair game, we can always go back to looking at The Brexit Party's NHS manifesto. I assume that's the journalist who seems to argue in favour of moving towards a system borrowing from European health systems? Irony? Do we know who these poster chaps are or are they hiding unchallengeable behind anonymity? I assume they are complying with electoral law on third party campaigning? Who are they campaigning for? Anyway, all they're doing is highlighting these people's own words... If you agree with those words, then you're agreeing with the Brexit party, right?
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Godanubis
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Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
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Post by Godanubis on May 16, 2019 15:21:29 GMT
I assume that's the journalist who seems to argue in favour of moving towards a system borrowing from European health systems? Irony? Do we know who these poster chaps are or are they hiding unchallengeable behind anonymity? I assume they are complying with electoral law on third party campaigning? Who are they campaigning for? Anyway, all they're doing is highlighting these people's own words... If you agree with those words, then you're agreeing with the Brexit party, right? I would guess there are very very few religious groups that don’t say something against being gay. It doesn’t make it right and not everyone who is religious fanatically believe everything advocated. One thing doesn’t define a person I guess the “Vengeance is mine” thingy means only God can say and do bad things with impunity. There is a lot going for secularism. Of course I’m still open to the odd act of devotion and worship Fat chance of that on here
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on May 16, 2019 15:38:26 GMT
I assume that's the journalist who seems to argue in favour of moving towards a system borrowing from European health systems? Irony? Do we know who these poster chaps are or are they hiding unchallengeable behind anonymity? I assume they are complying with electoral law on third party campaigning? Who are they campaigning for? Anyway, all they're doing is highlighting these people's own words... If you agree with those words, then you're agreeing with the Brexit party, right? AIUI They dont have to be campaigning for anyone, campaigning against also counts or on an issue. Their activity appears to meet the 'the purpose' test in that it can be reasonably regarded as intended to influence people's vote which counts as a regulated activity under electoral law. And 'public' test in that it is not merely targeted against members/associates.
That said I assume they wont hit the spending limit anyway.
I dont but then agreeing with a few random out of context quotes from some previous point in time doesnt really equate to agreeing with a party. If I pick a few random quotes from Ken C on Europe, M Gove on environment, D Cameron on gay marriage which you might agree with then youd be agreeing with the Tory party, right?
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shimself
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Post by shimself on May 16, 2019 15:44:21 GMT
Anyway, if we think Widdecombe's attempts to impose her morality on millions isn't fair game, we can always go back to looking at The Brexit Party's NHS manifesto. I assume that's the journalist who seems to argue in favour of moving towards a system borrowing from European health systems? Irony? Do we know who these poster chaps are or are they hiding unchallengeable behind anonymity? I assume they are complying with electoral law on third party campaigning? Here they are (led by donkeys). www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/07/billboard-campaigners-brexit-led-by-donkeys
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shimself
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Post by shimself on May 16, 2019 15:53:01 GMT
I dont but then agreeing with a few random out of context quotes from some previous point in time doesnt really equate to agreeing with a party. If I pick a few random quotes from Ken C on Europe, M Gove on environment, D Cameron on gay marriage which you might agree with then youd be agreeing with the Tory party, right? Not that much out of context for the main part at least. More like fair cop. And given that Farage won't tell us any of his policies (apart from leave at any cost on Halloween) it's entirely reasonable to publicise what policies he has floated in the past
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jo
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Post by jo on May 16, 2019 16:04:35 GMT
O/T, that ByDonkeys stuff strikes me as a driving hazard, in the same way that some of the signs on the M4 in Wales are just a sea of words.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on May 16, 2019 16:40:43 GMT
I dont but then agreeing with a few random out of context quotes from some previous point in time doesnt really equate to agreeing with a party. If I pick a few random quotes from Ken C on Europe, M Gove on environment, D Cameron on gay marriage which you might agree with then youd be agreeing with the Tory party, right? Not that much out of context for the main part at least. More like fair cop. And given that Farage won't tell us any of his policies (apart from leave at any cost on Halloween) it's entirely reasonable to publicise what policies he has floated in the past
I doubt that many people (if any) who are going to vote for the Brexit party in the EU elections care what their domestic policies are/might be in future.
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Godanubis
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Post by Godanubis on May 17, 2019 18:16:13 GMT
Not that much out of context for the main part at least. More like fair cop. And given that Farage won't tell us any of his policies (apart from leave at any cost on Halloween) it's entirely reasonable to publicise what policies he has floated in the past
I doubt that many people (if any) who are going to vote for the Brexit party in the EU elections care what their domestic policies are/might be in future. They don’t need to know at the moment but I am sure “The Nigel” will be scrutinising the best costed policies of every party and with the spirit of the country comes first the Brexit Party will adopt those with their own added. By the time a general election is called they will be ready and I would imagine if any leavers that want to stand the best chance of achieving exit from EU that they desert there current allegiances and vote for The Brexit party. If we are not out and a GE is called I think the Brexit party would end up holding the balance of power..
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Post by captainconfident on May 17, 2019 18:57:16 GMT
What interests me is that The Nige is talking about breaking the two party system for good, and that means reforming the electoral system. If, and it's a big if, they get a fair proportion of MPs under the current system, I suspect that aim might be quickly forgotten but what seems likely is that they split the Tory vote and either Labour or the Tories will have to try to form a minority or a coalition government.
At that point, electoral reform will be right at the fore because The Brexit and the Greens, Lib Dems are likely to be hugely under-represented and rebalancing the whole rotten system will be anyone's price for forming a government.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on May 18, 2019 16:25:57 GMT
What interests me is that The Nige is talking about breaking the two party system for good, and that means reforming the electoral system. If, and it's a big if, they get a fair proportion of MPs under the current system, I suspect that aim might be quickly forgotten but what seems likely is that they split the Tory vote and either Labour or the Tories will have to try to form a minority or a coalition government. At that point, electoral reform will be right at the fore because The Brexit and the Greens, Lib Dems are likely to be hugely under-represented and rebalancing the whole rotten system will be anyone's price for forming a government. I can see the Brexit party taking votes away from the Tories at the next GE, but find it much harder to see them getting a significant number of MPs under the current FPTP system. Unless/until they get that, I can't see them being 'kingmakers' or being able to dictate a reform of the electoral system as their price for joining a coalition.
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