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Post by loftankerman on Jun 2, 2019 12:07:08 GMT
Or they could just leave it alone and warn punters that their capital may be at risk. Surely that captures everything perfectly, has no complexity for anyone to need advice over and leaves nothing for anyone to complain about when things go pear shaped.
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on Jun 2, 2019 12:08:18 GMT
A good bit of balanced reporting.... Interesting nugget: 'The FCA will release new guidelines for the Industry this week', I don't know if that was expected. Edit: I was actually reading the article in the paper today headline, ' Is this the end of the road for peer-to-peer?'. I think the content is similar, we are still doomed. Reminds me of of a (partially) titular line from an REM song: " It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine". Substitute 'world' with 'P2P' and pretty much anything that tightens up platform operations, educates platform users and limits the over-reliance placed on PFs and SMs and I'm of the same mind as Mssrs Stipe, Mills & co. IMO, there could be a place for P2P platforms of various flavours, but not as it is today. Too much 'boom-then-bust', especially given the length of some property development (and to a lesser extent bridging) loans, where 'holding to term' is often considered a foolish 'strategy'. Remove any option for 'strategy' (beyond tons of diversification) and the game changes to the benefit of (almost) everyone.
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Post by billy169 on Jun 2, 2019 12:17:59 GMT
So are PG's etc.worthless ??..we are doomed if they are !
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Jun 2, 2019 12:26:52 GMT
So are PG's etc.worthless ??..we are doomed if they are ! Yes, PGs are usually worthless. To easy to move assets in general.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jun 2, 2019 12:33:33 GMT
So are PG's etc.worthless ??..we are doomed if they are ! Yes, PGs are usually worthless. To easy to move assets in general. Not to mention, even if the borrower is honourable, most of their money is probably tied up in the company/project so if it goes down they are often left bankrupt. Offering a PG can be seen as a commitment, but it rarely turns into much in the way of £s.
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Jun 2, 2019 12:36:27 GMT
Yes, PGs are usually worthless. To easy to move assets in general. Not to mention, even if the borrower is honourable, most of their money is probably tied up in the company/project so if it goes down they are often left bankrupt. Offering a PG can be seen as a commitment, but it rarely turns into much in the way of £s. Most of lendys Borrower’s don’t seem to have much if any skin in the game. The loans where borrowers have put in some of their own cash usually turn out quite well. Thinking of the <redacted> cement factory which I wouldn’t have touched had I not been for large personal investment from the borrower.
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Post by billy169 on Jun 2, 2019 12:45:52 GMT
So if PG'S are worthless..then all the loans are entirely reliant on the valuations..and that seems to be a racket...is it really that simple ?
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MarkT
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Post by MarkT on Jun 2, 2019 12:58:17 GMT
So if PG'S are worthless..then all the loans are entirely reliant on the valuations..and that seems to be a racket...is it really that simple ?
Pretty much.
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Post by billy169 on Jun 2, 2019 13:07:55 GMT
So P2P would have a future if the RICS clan were sorted out,,it's they who are really responsible for this mess..
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MarkT
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Post by MarkT on Jun 2, 2019 13:24:27 GMT
So P2P would have a future if the RICS clan were sorted out,,it's they who are really responsible for this mess..
Personally, I think the RICS valuers valuations have been shocking. So yes, in terms of lenders ultimate losses they should take a significant amount of the blame.
However, it's now clear to me that 12% interest plus other significant charges on borrowers was only ever sustainable for very short term bridging type loans. It was always likely to fail for DFLs and any other longer term type loans. Few borrowers were ever going to be able to service that level of debt repayment over the longer term.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jun 2, 2019 13:35:39 GMT
So P2P would have a future if the RICS clan were sorted out,,it's they who are really responsible for this mess.. Not wishing to remove blame from valuers but not always, it is comparatively easy to value an existing property as security for a loan so if they get that very wrong yes. If the loan is to renovate a property or they are asked for a GDV valuation for a major development it could be very subjective and if the project doesn't get completed the value of the part completed project could be very low. Then it should have been the platform making sure the development was feasible including costing and timescale, rather than just saying they only want to borrow X and the GDV valuation is X+50% so that's fine.
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Post by billy169 on Jun 2, 2019 13:54:42 GMT
I agree.but even LB has to rely on experts..and RICS are highly paid experts..it's thier job..a lot of valuations are just wild guessing...no skill required.
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Post by samford71 on Jun 2, 2019 14:00:41 GMT
So P2P would have a future if the RICS clan were sorted out,,it's they who are really responsible for this mess.. No. You're missing the point. It obvious valuations have been shocking but why are you surprised? The valuation is based on the no-default scenario. The only time the valuation is needed, however, is in the default scenario. In that scenario all the assumptions are rendered invalid. I suppose you could ask for "default" valuations but that is incredibly hard to quantify. The valuer would have to be very conservative. Everything would be 200% LGDV! The key point is that you are lending against the wrong metric. Using LGDV as the metric often means the borrower has little or no downside and a large levered upside. This is why the few insto lenders who still do this type of "speculative" lending use Loan-to-Cost (LTC) at say 50% rather than LGDV at 70%.
Take DFL004. On a £23mm LGDV, the borrowers gets £14.5mm on a 65% ratio. Let say fees and interest are 24% (£3.5mm) meaning they receive just £11m. Given the build cost is theoretically £11.5mm, then their equity stake is just £0.5mm. They have very little skin in the game. If the completed project sells for say £16-23mm (say 70%-100% of the valuation's GDV) then the profit is £1.5-8.5m, a multiple on equity down of 3-17x. Note that the fees and interest are only paid for by the borrower when the project succeeds; when it fails they walk away with a £0.5mm loss and the platform's interest or fees are paid by the lenders.
By comparison, using 50% LTC and 9% rate, then the total loan is £5.75mm (50% of £11.5mm), which after fees and interest is £5.25mm, so their required equity is £6.25mm. A lot of skin in the game. At the same sale price of £16-23mm, the borrower's multiple on equity down is just 0.6-1.8. So Lendy offer a much more attractive deal than an instititution because they offer the borrower a more constrained downside and much more levered upside. Perhaps it's counterintuitive but Lendy's sky high borrowing rates offer a dirt cheap option to a property speculator. Then again this is why it called "speculative" property development
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Post by samford71 on Jun 2, 2019 14:17:57 GMT
Ok so it looks like the admins could still plunder the funds and decrease the values substantially. Just trying to work out whether it’s more expensive for the company or the admins to run down the books. It shouldn’t make much difference to the investor whoever runs the books but I guess it does. If someone put a gun to your head, what would you estimate would be the average recovery rate? (After costs) just curious. I'm not on top of the Lendy situation since my exposure was very small. I don't see this as that similar to COL. With the exception of the "old loans", it's unlikely that lenders in 36H contracts are creditors for a liquidated amount. Perhaps the FCA forced the company to elect for administration due to breach of reg cap rules; perhaps they were just plain insolvent. Yes, administrators have a high charge out rate but their overheads are less since they are just trying to unwind current positions, there will be less staff and overheads etc. I wouldn't assume that RSM is worse than Lendy. With regard to recovery values. Normally, in bilateral loan agreements, when the lender goes into administration, recovery values fall since the borrowers understand they are in a stronger position; time favours them as the administration cannot be open-ended. Administrators often have to sell the loan books at firesale prices to expedite the position. This situation here is somewhat different, however, since it's the agent that has gone down not the lender. Moreover, it's not clear Lendy was doing a good job at recovery. I'm afraid this is best covered by "prepare for the worst and hope for the best" but again I wouldn't assume you are now in a worse position. One of the big questions will be essentially "where did all the fees go"? Lendy originated £428mm in loans. From memory, based on their accounts for 15/16 and 16/17, turnover was £29.2m and £32.2m but net profits were just £2.6mm and £0.6mm, respectively (by end FY17 the had originated around £285mm in loans). We have no idea for 17/18 since they transferred ownership of Lendy Ltd to Lendy Group, and the accounts for Lendy Group are late (quelle surprise!). They only originated around £95mm loans during FY17/18 and <£50mm in 18/19, so they may well have registered a loss for both of those years if we extrapolate from 15/16 and 16/17 margins (compressing) and costs (rising). We do know that retained earnings were around £3.4mm for end FY16/17. This was after £1mm was transferred to an offshore entity, Wealth Protection International Remumeration Trust, with LB and TG as beneficiaries, and also £820k was owed to Lendy by property development company Teal Capital, which at the time was owned by LB and TG. Frankly, there is a web of companies to deal with here, many of whom seem to have been detached from the HoldCo in recent months/years. Nonetheless, there is still a question of where did the retained earnings go and why were admin expenses so high during their "successful" years. They didn't have that many staff in 15/16 for example. This may be all perfectly legit but having a forensic accountant take a look may be worthwhile.
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Post by billy169 on Jun 2, 2019 14:47:22 GMT
Yes..I have missed the point. Age (getting there). Stupidity ( been there a while) Was feet and inches or boxing gloves when i was a lad..the lunatics (accountants) have taken oven the asylum these days.!. Time for a whisky
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