cwah
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Post by cwah on May 27, 2019 12:07:19 GMT
There were some loans I've almost exited and were half way sold. Then suddently it stopped. Really, even if I can accept I'd have some losses it wouldn't be to the extent to the current one. I'm a little confused here, cwah. Which loans are you referring to, and which FCA action(s) on what date(s)? I refer to all loans. 2 years ago it was still possible to sell on the secondary market when the loan was late. Even 6 months late. Then suddenly it was not possible anymore. As exemple, I remember precisely having waited 2 months to sell my london loan (so 2 months no interest) and finally arrived to the position where 30% of my loan was sold. Just a couple of additional weeks would have had allowed my exit. But then no, it became "suspended", which is an in between state as not "defaulted" to comply with the FCA regulation. Then there was no more exit, it was a dead end. 5 figures of loans stuck from there by complying at this stage. If I knew that late loans would stop trading like this, I'd have exited way before.
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Monetus
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Post by Monetus on May 27, 2019 12:51:19 GMT
I'm a little confused here, cwah . Which loans are you referring to, and which FCA action(s) on what date(s)? I refer to all loans. 2 years ago it was still possible to sell on the secondary market when the loan was late. Even 6 months late. Then suddenly it was not possible anymore. As exemple, I remember precisely having waited 2 months to sell my london loan (so 2 months no interest) and finally arrived to the position where 30% of my loan was sold. Just a couple of additional weeks would have had allowed my exit. But then no, it became "suspended", which is an in between state as not "defaulted" to comply with the FCA regulation. Then there was no more exit, it was a dead end. 5 figures of loans stuck from there by complying at this stage. If I knew that late loans would stop trading like this, I'd have exited way before. Yes I do recall Lendy starting to suspend loans due to their "regulatory requirements" coming pretty much come out of nowhere a while back and taking quite a few by surprise (myself included). "Lendy has taken the decision to suspend the trading of this loan on the secondary market in line with its regulatory requirements given the change to the risk profile of this loan."Whether it really was down to the FCA requiring their suspension or Lendy just making it up as they went along.... who knows.
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on May 27, 2019 12:53:36 GMT
I'm a little confused here, cwah . Which loans are you referring to, and which FCA action(s) on what date(s)? I refer to all loans. 2 years ago it was still possible to sell on the secondary market when the loan was late. Even 6 months late. Then suddenly it was not possible anymore. As exemple, I remember precisely having waited 2 months to sell my london loan (so 2 months no interest) and finally arrived to the position where 30% of my loan was sold. Just a couple of additional weeks would have had allowed my exit. But then no, it became "suspended", which is an in between state as not "defaulted" to comply with the FCA regulation. Then there was no more exit, it was a dead end. 5 figures of loans stuck from there by complying at this stage. If I knew that late loans would stop trading like this, I'd have exited way before. If a loan is late, it can be suspended at any time. Even if a loan isn't late, it can be suspended at any time, if it breaches any aspect of the loan agreement. Relying on the SM as an exit strategy is always going to be risky. But please do contact the FCA and complain that the Secondary Market let you down. The more the FCA come to fully appreciate the reliance being placed on SMs, the better.
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cwah
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Post by cwah on May 27, 2019 12:58:19 GMT
I refer to all loans. 2 years ago it was still possible to sell on the secondary market when the loan was late. Even 6 months late. Then suddenly it was not possible anymore. As exemple, I remember precisely having waited 2 months to sell my london loan (so 2 months no interest) and finally arrived to the position where 30% of my loan was sold. Just a couple of additional weeks would have had allowed my exit. But then no, it became "suspended", which is an in between state as not "defaulted" to comply with the FCA regulation. Then there was no more exit, it was a dead end. 5 figures of loans stuck from there by complying at this stage. If I knew that late loans would stop trading like this, I'd have exited way before. If a loan is late, it can be suspended at any time. Even if a loan isn't late, it can be suspended at any time, if it breaches any aspect of the loan agreement. Relying on the SM as an exit strategy is always going to be risky. But please do contact the FCA and complain that the Secondary Market let you down. The more the FCA come to fully appreciate the reliance being placed on SMs, the better. I know it's risky and something I was willing to take on. That is for sure and not the best bet. But I and many still do that in many other platform with moderate amount of success... Because they haven't changed the rules in between!
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Monetus
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Post by Monetus on May 27, 2019 13:11:13 GMT
If a loan is late, it can be suspended at any time. Even if a loan isn't late, it can be suspended at any time, if it breaches any aspect of the loan agreement. Relying on the SM as an exit strategy is always going to be risky. But please do contact the FCA and complain that the Secondary Market let you down. The more the FCA come to fully appreciate the reliance being placed on SMs, the better. I know it's risky and something I was willing to take on. That is for sure and not the best bet. But I and many still do that in many other platform with moderate amount of success... Because they haven't changed the rules in between! Unfortunately Lendy had quite the habit of changing the rules regularly as they went along. "Fast fast and pivot" is what I believe they called it in one of their marketing newsletters from a couple of years ago:
"Fail fast and pivot"Fail fast" or "pivoting" is about looking at ways to fix the short term. The smaller things. Of trying something, getting fast feedback, and then honing it. Many entrepreneurial businesses, whether in the UK's world-beating fintech centre, operating out of innovation hubs like wework, or the start-up capital of the world, Silicon Valley, operate in this way. Not sure how to improve your service? One way would be to talk to a lot of people, get all their different views, assess their merits, decide what to do, schedule it on the development roadmap, evolve and test it, dot all the i's and cross all the t's and then maybe release it, if the person in charge of the project is still around. Or you could just get something out there and if it doesn’t work, fail fast, pivot, and try something else. The latter has been our approach. And one we'll be sticking to as we navigate our path, in a sector that is still very young, but learning fast from its past successes and mistakes. We took this approach when we built the platform over four years ago. And we've stuck with it, as new players have joined the market, and the FCA has taken more interest in the models that are operating."
Personally I'd have probably gone with the first option in a regulated financial business with hard-earned money at stake but perhaps that's just me? Maybe in Mr Brooke's view Lendy was the "failing fast" and Copious Capital is the "pivot"?
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cwah
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Post by cwah on May 28, 2019 21:05:31 GMT
Another thing that we have to consider, is to use Loan To GDV to trick investors. I really thought it meant Loan To Value when I invested and I thought it would be fairly safe.
Far from my mind it actually just mean a speculative number.
If the FCA were to protect us, it should forbid this type of advertisement or make sure it's explained to the investor instead of locking the secondary market when a loan is delayed!
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 29, 2019 8:30:08 GMT
Another thing that we have to consider, is to use Loan To GDV to trick investors. I really thought it meant Loan To Value when I invested and I thought it would be fairly safe. Far from my mind it actually just mean a speculative number. If the FCA were to protect us, it should forbid this type of advertisement or make sure it's explained to the investor instead of locking the secondary market when a loan is delayed! Sorry, but GDV is clearly explained in the various DFL valuation docs, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that a part-built development project is not worth a fraction of what it's worth when completed. If we look at just the loan description from one of the DFLs clicked at semi-random, with actual project numbers redacted as irrelevant for the illustration... The "Gross Development Value of £X (£X per unit x X @ X ft x £X p/sqft)" figure is the headline figure from the top of the page, from which the "Loan to GDV" is calculated". And that's before we even click on the valuation. If you didn't understand that, then why on earth were you contemplating investing? Do you not think there's any responsibility at all on investors to understand such absolute basics themselves? Did you really think that, if the development stopped for some reason, the GDV figure is something that would be achievable for a sea of mud with some piles of bricks and bits of poured concrete? If so, where did you think the final sales price for the completed houses would come into it?
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zccax77
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Post by zccax77 on May 29, 2019 8:34:57 GMT
The other thing is the GDV figure is prone to change in slight changes in assumptions. For example a lot of these GDV were based on a cost of capital figure of 8%, but clearly the cost of capital was nearer 18-20%. I am not sure why Lendy never included the correct figure maybe to deceive the punters. If the correct cost of finance were used then the GDV headroom would be significantly lower from a Ltv perspective the developer profit would disappear and one would need to ask the motive behind the loan. Never underestimate the impact of compound interest.
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zlb
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Post by zlb on May 29, 2019 9:09:21 GMT
Can one make a claim when they only awarded status 11/07/2018? Here are listings here with current permissions: register.fca.org.uk/ShPo_FirmDetailsPage?id=001b000003LH3vsAAD"This firm must protect the money it holds and/or controls on behalf of customers. It cannot lend this money or use it to finance its own business." Here's the bit that was put in place recently "Requirements are rules placed on the firm that apply to all of the financial services activities that it can operate. The firm is the subject of an asset restriction The Authority has decided to impose with immediate effect a requirement on the Firm, under section 55L of the Act, that it: a) must not in any way dispose of, deal with or diminish the value of any of its assets; and b) must not in any way release client money without in either case the prior written consent of the Authority" What does FCA approval really confer? I think that it could imply more than it actually does confer, to many. I can see that it awards permissions, but I don't know how far reaching the implications are of those permissions in terms of lender money safety/protection. What is the FCA responsible for here?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 29, 2019 10:12:29 GMT
The other thing is the GDV figure is prone to change in slight changes in assumptions. For example a lot of these GDV were based on a cost of capital figure of 8%, but clearly the cost of capital was nearer 18-20%. No, that'd change the developer's profit figure - which is irrelevant to us as lenders, so long as the developer thinks it worthwhile. The GDV is the total sale price of all the units in the development. That's what the security is based on. X houses multiplied by £X sale value (estimated on Xsqft floor area at £X/psf). All relevant assumptions stated in there. How much they cost to build, and how much the money costs, is not the problem of the buyers of those X houses, and doesn't affect what they pay.
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on May 29, 2019 10:41:23 GMT
The other thing is the GDV figure is prone to change in slight changes in assumptions. For example a lot of these GDV were based on a cost of capital figure of 8%, but clearly the cost of capital was nearer 18-20%. I am not sure why Lendy never included the correct figure maybe to deceive the punters. If the correct cost of finance were used then the GDV headroom would be significantly lower from a Ltv perspective the developer profit would disappear and one would need to ask the motive behind the loan. Never underestimate the impact of compound interest. " maybe"?!!!
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 14:38:01 GMT
having a loan book in such a disarray suggests something much more sinister. Which is almost certainly why the Administration team includes this guy. www.rsmuk.com/our-people/mark-wilsonRead that bio carefully. A few other posters have mentioned his background in other threads too. Hint - its not going to be pleasant for Lendy directors.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on May 29, 2019 15:36:34 GMT
Relying on being able to sell on any SM, is a recipe for disaster, liquidity is never guaranteed, and past liquidity does not mean future liquidity as lenders have found out on various platforms. And to emphasis this BondMason Core has just gone into wind down and the ability to sell has been removed completely. Yesterday you could have cashed in your portfolio today you can't (well maybe not quite yesterday because it would take a few days to complete).
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zlb
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Post by zlb on May 29, 2019 16:37:25 GMT
Relying on being able to sell on any SM, is a recipe for disaster, liquidity is never guaranteed, and past liquidity does not mean future liquidity as lenders have found out on various platforms. And to emphasis this BondMason Core has just gone into wind down and the ability to sell has been removed completely. Yesterday you could have cashed in your portfolio today you can't (well maybe not quite yesterday because it would take a few days to complete). unlikely to be able to sell all. After an initial sale, significant remaining portfolio takes a few months in dribs and drabs, one payment per month.
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Post by masquedefer on May 30, 2019 6:15:00 GMT
The other thing is the GDV figure is prone to change in slight changes in assumptions. For example a lot of these GDV were based on a cost of capital figure of 8%, but clearly the cost of capital was nearer 18-20%. No, that'd change the developer's profit figure - which is irrelevant to us as lenders, so long as the developer thinks it worthwhile. The GDV is the total sale price of all the units in the development. That's what the security is based on. X houses multiplied by £X sale value (estimated on Xsqft floor area at £X/psf). All relevant assumptions stated in there. How much they cost to build, and how much the money costs, is not the problem of the buyers of those X houses, and doesn't affect what they pay. Residual value calcs are also used to value land. Ie Plug in say 20.% for developer profit to obtain land value.
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