oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Oct 20, 2014 14:36:28 GMT
Yes, I await their explanation email with interest.... mmm! All seems normal today - there's now £201K behind me at 6%, and 202K in front, so I've moved up just over £100K since 13:04 BST. 17:00 BST Now £213K behind me in 6% and £122K in front, so moved up another £80K .... I think we can say it has worked correctly today. I still used "my rate" as an instruction for this morning's allocation.
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Post by westonkevRS on Oct 20, 2014 16:50:51 GMT
Grumpy,
If your money is lent today at the Market Rate as it usually is then there isn't an issue. However if you used Your Rate, your money doesn't get lent today, and the Market Rate tomorrow is lower; then your money will be "stranded". You would then have to sit tight, or lower your "Your Rate inspired by Market Rate" to the new lower Market Rate.
I'll await the Customer Services email but there is a further complication. Market Rates set on subsequent days can be lower even within the apparent same 0.1% band. Normally you wouldn't notice as your money would get lent.
My advice, if you use Your Rate then you need to check each day. It does not act as a floor above which Your Rate fluctuates with the Market Rate. Your Rate is fixed to two decimal places.
Kevin.
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spockie
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Post by spockie on Oct 20, 2014 17:07:29 GMT
I think you've misunderstood the problem. It isn't a case of money getting stranded because others then come in and lend at a lower rate. The problem is people lending at the SAME rate and coming in higher up the queue.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Oct 20, 2014 17:16:03 GMT
... Market Rates set on subsequent days can be lower even within the apparent same 0.1% band.... ...Your Rate is fixed to two decimal places. !!! If either of those statements is true then we have been systematically misled by the website which purports to work in 0.1% increments throughout. I hope very much that you are mistaken. Edit: spockie, westonkev seems to be saying that rates which look the same are not actually the same because the site works to two decimal places but only shows us one. I do not believe it. At least, I don't want to believe it!
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Post by westonkevRS on Oct 20, 2014 17:21:16 GMT
Here's the official explanation:
"The Market Rates for our products are set each day by looking at existing lender orders in the market. These orders are shown to one decimal place as a Lender return, whereas the order matching process occurs to two decimal places (as reflected in each Lender contract where the ‘Interest Rate’ is shown to 2 decimal places). This means that there are 10 different base rates that can match to the same lender return. Lender base rates are set by many different processes (lender orders, reinvestments, sellouts, forced fills). So it is possible that the same Market Rate expressed as a lender return is in fact at a different base rate. Over the last few days the Market Rate base rate has been at 5.75 and 5.84, both of which match to a lender return of 5.9% and which explains the recent activity. This can occur if you have chosen to set “Your Rate” and it is below or at that day’s Market Rate and the order has not been fully matched on that day and there has been a subsequent change in the Market Rate base rate such that the base rate is lower at the same lender return. This is an unusual event"
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Post by yorkshireman on Oct 20, 2014 17:23:34 GMT
Did someone once mention City Boys?
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Oct 20, 2014 17:34:34 GMT
If your money is lent today at the Market Rate as it usually is then there isn't an issue. However if you used Your Rate, your money doesn't get lent today, and the Market Rate tomorrow is lower; then your money will be "stranded". You would then have to sit tight, or lower your "Your Rate inspired by Market Rate" to the new lower Market Rate.
Yes, we accept that. At this moment, If tomorrow's market rate is 5.9% I will be stranded at 6% until the market goes up again.
I'll await the Customer Services email but there is a further complication. Market Rates set on subsequent days can be lower even within the apparent same 0.1% band. Normally you wouldn't notice as your money would get lent.
That concept is what I want eliminated. If I have chosen 6% and am in that queue, I don't expect Market Rate 6% to be anything but that. Subsequent days' 6% market rate MUST NOT be placed in front of waiting investor selected 6% rate. If your system cannot do this - fix it!! It's all very well you saying (in answer to my rumblings) don't use "your rate". If it doesn't work properly - isn't fit for purpose, get rid of it. It shouldn't be there.
My advice, if you use Your Rate then you need to check each day. It does not act as a floor above which Your Rate fluctuates with the Market Rate. Your Rate is fixed to two decimal places.
This is an irrelevance. I am not expecting "My Rate" to fluctuate with the market rate. I am just expecting that if market rate is 6% tomorrow then all new MR cash comes in at 6% also, therefore behind waiting 6% orders. If market rate is 6.1% tomorrow, I don't expect my rate to go up. It will stay at 6.0% and be lent out before the 6.1% tranche. None of your explanation explains how RS allows a system which, for several days placed all 5.9% orders, whether manually made, or nightly repayment instruction orders, in front of existing waiting orders at the same rate. It is no use saying "it happens". STOP IT HAPPENING! Today, all incoming orders at 6% were placed at the back of the queue as they should have been. Last week this was not happening.
If 6% for "my rate" (fixed to two decimal places) is a different rate to 6% for a nightly tranche of repayment orders, we all need to know exactly how and why. (Apart from the fact that "market rate "might" go higher but "my" fixed rate won't.
(edit: composed while the official answer was already being posted)
_____________________________________________________________
Final edit 18:45 BST then a typo at 18:49
The official reply explains why 5.9% may or may not be 5.9%....(or 6% not 6% as is today's situation)
What I do not believe is that for three days last week, just about everybody who manually made an order at 5.9% used "market rate" as their instruction. Nobody setting their own rate, while hundreds of thousands was being placed and lent out from at least Tuesday through to Sunday, when all the 5.9% was matched? Surely some people were using "your rate" and would have gone to the end of the queue. We didn't budge for days! The official reply explains how market rate can be below the on screen rate. I still think something else was stuck.
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ramblin rose
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“Some people grumble that roses have thorns; I am grateful that thorns have roses.” — Alphonse Karr
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Post by ramblin rose on Oct 20, 2014 17:42:15 GMT
This all seems to blow a bit of a hole in the theory that the RS queues are transparent. They transparently aren't. If offers are being put in with 2dp accuracy, then shouldn't the queue be shown at 2dp accuracy? Just a thought.
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Post by elljay on Oct 20, 2014 17:43:57 GMT
Here's the official explanation: " The Market Rates for our products are set each day by looking at existing lender orders in the market. These orders are shown to one decimal place as a Lender return, whereas the order matching process occurs to two decimal places (as reflected in each Lender contract where the ‘Interest Rate’ is shown to 2 decimal places). This means that there are 10 different base rates that can match to the same lender return. Lender base rates are set by many different processes (lender orders, reinvestments, sellouts, forced fills). So it is possible that the same Market Rate expressed as a lender return is in fact at a different base rate. Over the last few days the Market Rate base rate has been at 5.75 and 5.84, both of which match to a lender return of 5.9% and which explains the recent activity. This can occur if you have chosen to set “Your Rate” and it is below or at that day’s Market Rate and the order has not been fully matched on that day and there has been a subsequent change in the Market Rate base rate such that the base rate is lower at the same lender return. This is an unusual event" Should the 5.9% I've highlighted in red should read 5. 8%?
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Oct 20, 2014 18:27:41 GMT
Assuming that a correction will be applied to the figures highlighted by elljay possibly to 5.85%, 5.94% >>>> 5.9% (which is where all the kerfuffle happened) I note this: If this explanation were to be taken at face value, surely because of the fluctuation over the period from Tuesday afternoon when I noticed it, some of the orders would have been below my 5.90%, and some would have been above my 5.90%, so I (and the others) would not have been permanently fixed at the end of the queue because those orders which were above 5.90% should have gone to the back. That did not happen. edit: Or (horror of horrors) the figures westonkevRS gave us from the office were true, and they've placed all what should have 5.8% into 5.9% ..... nah! There would still have been odd folks putting in 5.9% manually and they would have shown at the end of the queue.
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Oct 20, 2014 18:39:07 GMT
I think you've misunderstood the problem. It isn't a case of money getting stranded because others then come in and lend at a lower rate. The problem is people lending at the SAME rate and coming in higher up the queue. spockie Missed this because I'm slow at typing out posts and only just read it. What alerted me last Tuesday was precisely this. The queue was near £500K. I dumped all my 6.2% as a new order into 5.9% and I went in front of £443K of other people's 5.9% orders.
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wapping35
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Post by wapping35 on Oct 20, 2014 18:44:02 GMT
Well I got a slightly different reply but broadly the same I guess ++++ Thank you for your patience while I was waiting for a response from our tech team. The Market Rates for our products are set each day by looking at existing lender orders in the market. These orders are shown to one decimal place as a Lender return, whereas the order matching process occurs to two decimal places (as reflected in each Lender contract where the ‘Interest Rate’ is shown to 2 decimal places). This means that there are 10 different base rates that can match to the same lender return. Lender base rates are set by many different processes (lender orders, reinvestments, sell-outs, forced fills). So it is possible that the same Market Rate expressed as a lender return is in fact at a different base rate. Over the last few days the Market Rate base rate has been at 5.75 and 5.84, both of which match to a lender return of 5.9% and which explains the recent activity. This can occur if you have chosen to set “Your Rate” and it is below or at that day’s Market Rate and the order has not been fully matched on that day and there has been a subsequent change in the Market Rate base rate such that the base rate is lower at the same lender return. This is a corner case event, but the system is working in the correct way. I hope this was helpful, but please let me know if you have any other questions. ----------------------- I am going to ask a few questions. What I do not understand is this only explains why MR funds may be higher in the "same" 5.9% queue than YR. It does not explain why my YR 5.9% was higher in the queue on Wednesday than Thursday and Friday. I can say this since I had 3 orders that did this and have a screen print of it (from Friday). It also does not explain why when I reset my Wednesday offer on Saturday by cancelling the 5.9% taking the money to Holding and then relending it immediately at 5.9% (YR used) that it was in front of 5.9% on Wednesday. That is taking the logic of the RS Customer Services email (and using 2 decimal places). Why was 5.90% on Wednesday higher than 5.90% YR on Thursday , Friday and Saturday…?
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Oct 20, 2014 18:57:49 GMT
"It also does not explain why when I reset my Wednesday offer on Saturday by cancelling the 5.9% taking the money to Holding and then relending it immediately at 5.9% (YR used) that it was in front of 5.9% on Wednesday."
Hitting the nail on the head, Wappers! if all RS official "explanation" were true, you'd have gone right back where you started. You didn't - you hopped a couple of hundred grand up the queue. As I said at the time, I would leave mine where it was (as a control) to see what happened, and it stayed at the back until Sunday pm when the whole of 5.9% was lent out.
No one can tell me that of all the hundreds of thousands of £ of orders set between Wednesday and Sunday at (RS would have us believe) at rates varying between 5.85% and 5.94% (I am assuming there those are the figures that RS actually meant, not 5.75 and 5.84*) NONE OF THEM were 5.90 or above ... which would have put them behind me in the queue.
*edit 21 Oct, 16:13 Kev has explained further down that they do mean 5.75 and 5.84 and that it is assumed lenders will reinvest so compounded that equals 5.9%
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wapping35
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Post by wapping35 on Oct 20, 2014 19:17:45 GMT
Well I have just sent the following email. I expect it may take a few days to get back to me. What fun…. W35…(or should it be Wappers ?) p.s. Sorry Kevin to be troublesome. ================ Thank you for your reply, however I am sorry but this does not explain the problem I saw. I understand why this might mean money set at the market rate (by others) is in front of my 5.90% (using Your Rate) offer on Wednesday. However it does not explain the following. 1) Why my Offers on Thursday (x1) and Friday (x1) also using Your rate at 5.90% were in front of a Your Rate on Wednesday also at 5.90%. Using 2 decimals. See below for a screen print illustrating this. From Friday when I called Jordan. The £102.51 was a Your Rate(YR) at 5.90%. The £25.03 was a Market Rate(MR) (so yes in front of it, may be 5.89%for example). But the Friday 17th £138.82 was also a Your Rate set at 5.90% and it clearly shows itself as £65k in Front of Wednesday's YR at 5.90%. That £138.82 got lent on Friday. As I mentioned on the phone, on Saturday I took the £102.51 to my Holding Account and then immediately re-lent it using Your Rate at 5.90% (I did not use the market rate) and it immediately appeared further in advance of where it was in the queue when it was Wednesday's 5.90%. It also got lent on Saturday in front of other lenders Your Rates (5.90%) from Wednesday (who got lent out on Sunday when the rate went to 6.0%). I understand what you are saying but this is not about MR v YR. It is about how can YR set at 5.90% on Wednesday can be seen by the queuing system as higher than a YR 5.90%(set by me) on Thursday, Friday and Saturday. Can you please get back to me on this. Kind regards
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Oct 20, 2014 19:21:55 GMT
Yeah! How come Wappers's 5.90% jumps in front of my 5.90%. I'll sort 'im out, mate! Yeah!
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