ceejay
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Post by ceejay on Aug 26, 2019 17:03:38 GMT
Me too.. After 6 or 7 years in the game, it is obvious that..
The platforms don't listen and learn The lenders, even those reading the forum, don't listen and learn Too many borrowers are incompetent, crooked, or fantasists. The interests of the platforms appears to be directly in opposition to the interests of the lenders, at least in the short term, which is all most of them seem to care about.
I've not been in the game quite as long as that, but I won't argue with your observations. I might, though, suggest that you try substituting "people" for each of "platforms", "lenders" and "borrowers" and see what you get. This is the world in which we live, for better or worse. It's futile expecting whole classes of people to behave "well" (whatever that means) - the best we can do is to put in place systems and processes to limit their excesses, and for each individual then to take responsibility for looking out for their own interests. So, tempting though it is to throw one's hands in the air and revert to FSCS cash accounts, I think there is still mileage in trying to improve what is, after all, still a very young industry. And to use resources like this forum to inform individuals to give them a chance of looking after themselves and their hard-earned dosh.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Aug 26, 2019 20:05:11 GMT
Well yes, but we HAVE been informing folks here for years.. P2p isn't liquid, isn't suitable for essential funds, etc etc.. doesn't seem to have arrived where it was needed most.
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Post by martin44 on Aug 26, 2019 20:09:04 GMT
Well yes, but we HAVE been informing folks here for years.. P2p isn't liquid, isn't suitable for essential funds, etc etc.. doesn't seem to have arrived where it was needed most. agreed.... and im still F****d   " src="//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/superangry.png">
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ceejay
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Post by ceejay on Aug 26, 2019 21:52:22 GMT
Well yes, but we HAVE been informing folks here for years.. P2p isn't liquid, isn't suitable for essential funds, etc etc.. doesn't seem to have arrived where it was needed most. Yes, you have, and it's done a lot of good. I lurked for some time before posting and learned a lot here, and I know a lot of other posters would say something similar. Don't beat yourself up because the forum isn't a perfect solution! There's no such thing - just one of a number of actions which, taken together, make the world slightly less difficult than it might have been. That's all there is.
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zlb
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Post by zlb on Aug 27, 2019 8:04:21 GMT
Well yes, but we HAVE been informing folks here for years.. P2p isn't liquid, isn't suitable for essential funds, etc etc.. doesn't seem to have arrived where it was needed most. I think it's because retail investors, who've never worked in the finance industry, nor been anywhere near it, don't understand the variability in financial instruments, which can be very complex. They can only go by the information on security given by the platform. Warnings about losing capital can sound like tick box requirements, because how can a company be allowed to operate and lose multiple millions, or why would a company want to, or be allowed to loan to dodgy borrowers? It's not clear to retail investors that the FCA would condone a financial model which, as others point out, has a conflict of financial interest between the platform owners and the lenders.
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Post by propman on Aug 27, 2019 10:55:45 GMT
The whole financial industry is full of conflicts of interest between clients and providers.
For what it is worth, I abhor the nanny state approach that has removed the emphasis on caveat emptor from the industry. I think that blunter and more prominant warnings should be put on all advertising and recommendations and then the FCA should restrict prosecutions to genuine cases of negligence, employing other sanctions to those not advising apprpriately such as removal of authorisations.
I do not expect the current changes to work as planned. many people will manage to invest >10% in P2P before they understand it, while others will have been investing in lower risk P2P in benign conditions and will thus be exposed to all the sharks when woefully inequipped. There are too many "fools" available on the interweb to deter those wishing to take fees to put them in inappropraite investments for any system to truly protect the investors without cutting the industry off at the knees.
JMHO
PM
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aju
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Post by aju on Aug 27, 2019 15:53:02 GMT
The whole financial industry is full of conflicts of interest between clients and providers.
For what it is worth, I abhor the nanny state approach that has removed the emphasis on caveat emptor from the industry. I think that blunter and more prominant warnings should be put on all advertising and recommendations and then the FCA should restrict prosecutions to genuine cases of negligence, employing other sanctions to those not advising apprpriately such as removal of authorisations.
I do not expect the current changes to work as planned. many people will manage to invest >10% in P2P before they understand it, while others will have been investing in lower risk P2P in benign conditions and will thus be exposed to all the sharks when woefully inequipped. There are too many "fools" available on the interweb to deter those wishing to take fees to put them in inappropraite investments for any system to truly protect the investors without cutting the industry off at the knees.
JMHO
PM
I agree 100%, "buyer beware" is probably a universal guide to dealing in most things I'd say - "If it looks too good to be true it almost certainly is!" has always served me very well and I remember in my younger days being fooled on more occasions than I care to remember if I could remember anything these days!.
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Post by mrclondon on Aug 27, 2019 19:28:07 GMT
Well day 1 of my road trip .... and I have been well and truely fooled ... by CGI images on the rightmove listings for some flats in Abingdon, Oxfordshire and estate agent text that implied they were finished. (Dev loan due to mature next month, platform doesn't provide updates). They looked so realistic, yours truely never for a moment thought he was visiting a building site this evening ! (Full story on DDC later this evening along with pics ).
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on Aug 27, 2019 20:58:00 GMT
Well day 1 of my road trip .... and I have been well and truely fooled ... by CGI images on the rightmove listings for some flats in Abingdon, Oxfordshire and estate agent text that implied they were finished. (Dev loan due to mature next month, platform doesn't provide updates). They looked so realistic, yours truely never for a moment thought he was visiting a building site this evening ! (Full story on DDC later this evening along with pics ). I'm presuming these are the flats LP's lenders have loaned against - if so, I note that the following text is on the £250k unit listed June 6th and the £175k unit originally listed on the same date but reduced on July 2nd, but not he two listings from late July. "Important notice regarding photographs
Photographs showing furniture and furnishings and the external images have been digitally enhanced to give buyers a flavour of the intended finish and layout of the property internally and externally."
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star dust
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Post by star dust on Aug 27, 2019 22:08:47 GMT
Well yes, but we HAVE been informing folks here for years.. P2p isn't liquid, isn't suitable for essential funds, etc etc.. doesn't seem to have arrived where it was needed most. Personally, I think the thing that tricks people most is the so-called “LTV” or security, which I suspect many think works like domestic house prices. i.e. easy to sell, reliable valuation, competing buyers, etc. Also, while I hesitate to create more work for the mods, I wonder if the time is coming for a (brightly coloured?) banner or FAQ leading to some choice text or posts/threads detailing our/their shared disappointment with the state of the market? I can imagine the platforms would be dis-chuffed... Well, if you, or anyone else, would like to produce something I'll be more than happy to pin it for you  . I think the Glossary could do with an overhaul/update, so maybe a "read this before you invest in anything" guide/FAQ (if that's the sort of thing you were thinking of - colours in jest  ) might be a good idea.
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zlb
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Post by zlb on Aug 28, 2019 9:55:20 GMT
Personally, I think the thing that tricks people most is the so-called “LTV” or security, which I suspect many think works like domestic house prices. i.e. easy to sell, reliable valuation, competing buyers, etc. Also, while I hesitate to create more work for the mods, I wonder if the time is coming for a (brightly coloured?) banner or FAQ leading to some choice text or posts/threads detailing our/their shared disappointment with the state of the market? I can imagine the platforms would be dis-chuffed... Well, if you, or anyone else, would like to produce something I'll be more than happy to pin it for you . I think the Glossary could do with an overhaul/update, so maybe a "read this before you invest in anything" guide/FAQ (if that's the sort of thing you were thinking of - colours in jest ) might be a good idea. the problem is that new comers don't know who this forum is comprised of, they don't know whether contributors do or do not know what they are talking about. They can't look contributors up on LinkedIn. To new readers, they see a range of names and avatars, reams of cryptic comments alluding to things that they've found out but can't share, what appear to be in-jokes, shared between those in the know. Comments like 'smells fishy', or 'what did you expect'. There's very little deconstruction of why there's a risk until there's a crash. The information on this very good forum isn't as easy to deconstruct for those without financial instrument knowledge, as might be thought. (Even) retail investors want to make their own decisions rather than be told to stay away without knowing why, no matter that advice coming from a good place. Hence review sites like 4thway being of use.
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star dust
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Post by star dust on Aug 28, 2019 10:48:01 GMT
the problem is that new comers don't know who this forum is comprised of, they don't know whether contributors do or do not know what they are talking about. They can't look contributors up on LinkedIn. To new readers, they see a range of names and avatars, reams of cryptic comments alluding to things that they've found out but can't share, what appear to be in-jokes, shared between those in the know. Comments like 'smells fishy', or 'what did you expect'. There's very little deconstruction of why there's a risk until there's a crash. The information on this very good forum isn't as easy to deconstruct for those without financial instrument knowledge, as might be thought. (Even) retail investors want to make their own decisions rather than be told to stay away without knowing why, no matter that advice coming from a good place. Hence review sites like 4thway being of use. A disclaimer to start: I do not have a financial background and am just an 'ordinary' retail investor.
I was actually musing about this the other day and thinking if I was new to P2P I might be a bit put off by this forum and wonder what on earth a lot of it was about, and if I'd never invested in P2P it might be sufficient to deter me. When I think back I finally joined it about a year after it had started up having lurked for a while, but I came from the sheltered world of the Zopa forum and at least being there had given me a grounding and alerted me to the fact that P2P was far from straightforward, it also meant that I recognised a number of the avatars. However, even when I joined the P2PIF it was pretty clear to me that there were a number of very intelligent and savvy people here and I could probably learn a lot. I also most likely joined to say something specific about a loan/platform which I think is one of the reasons why a number of people still do - there has been a recent influx of newcomers as a result of the Fairy Castle's (or FC's to avoid an in-joke ) selling queue.
So I think (but may be quite wrong) that most people (well the ordinary retail ones) join because they are already investing in one form of P2P or another, or have heard about a platform are considering investing and want to know more. Quite a few may also concentrate on a specific platform initially, but realise there is a resource here should they wish to branch out and take the time to read through things.
In any event an attempt to summarise (in plain English) the trip wires that people should consider in general when investing in P2P can't be a bad idea, but isn't, I would contend, an easy task as there are just so many factors and variables at play.
Now I can feel a poll coming on, and why did you join this forum?
And as a footnote - agree wholeheartedly about the anonymity aspect, and I'd be happy to move away from it, but unfortunately it is something that the majority of members want to retain.
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aju
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Post by aju on Aug 28, 2019 10:49:55 GMT
So I'm not new to these forums but I decided to look to see what the relevant threads as defined above as being available might be and to be honest I couldn't find anything that was very much like investor warnings that as has been said above is not actually useful to a new lender - unless they are a better forensic detective that I am!.
All that said I am fortunate to have been in P2P from almost the beginning and have therefor had a long time to realise that extreme caution, regardless of whatever level of P2P you enter into, is the best approach. Mind you I am by nature a very cautious person anyway and only work with Zopa and RS at this time. All that said even with those biguns, for want of a better term, are not immune from issues of the wider markets etc (I've just noticed that Boris is now going for the suspension of Parliament (proroguing) route for brexit so the markets may be fluctuating a little in the coming days/weeks.)
I bet they disguise that as just normal especially since the current parliament has been running for 2 years - I think!.
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zlb
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Post by zlb on Aug 28, 2019 12:29:54 GMT
A glossary and explanation of what could go wrong in a range of scenarios, what LTGDV structure to look for. I can only think this might help improve the sector practice. This would complement the range of reports on p2p review sites and news.
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Post by propman on Aug 28, 2019 15:00:26 GMT
I think the warnings are piecemeal rather than whole threads, generally starting with a comment about a naive comment or a rant from someone annoyed at some event.
It would be ironic if a forum of investors in P2P were to write a definitive warning to scare the majority of naive investors off and bring other over optimistic ones down to earth. In addition, although I am not involved in many platforms, one of the biggest issue is how opaque much of the sector is. I for one acknowledge that I am unclear of many key facts and am taking much on trust. Much of P2P is more akin to trusting my money to a fund manager within agreed constraints than employing their platforms for me to invest directly in loans that the naive probably assume P2P is.
I think that a better route is to encourage FCA to require specific standardised disclosures as well as a cut down IM style explanation of the investment and risks that each investor should have to sign up to.
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