locutus
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,059
Likes: 1,622
|
Post by locutus on Oct 25, 2019 7:27:12 GMT
2) Confirmation of intent to continue the litigation on the Lytham St Annes and Art loans. To comment on your point above; litigation will be hugely expensive for the art loans. Ultimate returns per investor over all their loans will depend on which loans each individual is in (I assume) and the money to pay for legal costs may well have to come from repayments of loans. Many folk not in the art loans would be unhappy to have administrators costs spent on this activity. I am in them a small way and would choose to accept a write off rather than part fund an expensive legal action
Even if you're not in the art loans but are an FS investor, you should support further litigation. The expensive part is already done and if FS win, they will get their costs paid for which runs into hundreds of thousands already spent. This money will then be returned to the pot, along with significant fees from the loans themselves, for distribution to general creditors. It would be crazy to stop pursuing at this point given the cost/benefit.
|
|
Mucho P2P
Member of DD Central
Posts: 946
Likes: 1,635
|
Post by Mucho P2P on Oct 25, 2019 8:00:38 GMT
2) Confirmation of intent to continue the litigation on the Lytham St Annes and Art loans. To comment on your point above; litigation will be hugely expensive for the art loans. Ultimate returns per investor over all their loans will depend on which loans each individual is in (I assume) and the money to pay for legal costs may well have to come from repayments of loans. Many folk not in the art loans would be unhappy to have administrators costs spent on this activity. I am in them a small way and would choose to accept a write off rather than part fund an expensive legal action
Even if you're not in the art loans but are an FS investor, you should support further litigation. The expensive part is already done and if FS win, they will get their costs paid for which runs into hundreds of thousands already spent. This money will then be returned to the pot, along with significant fees from the loans themselves, for distribution to general creditors. It would be crazy to stop pursuing at this point given the cost/benefit. I only have minimal exposure to these loans, so my comments based upon the partial knowledge I have of the proceedings to date. Points to note: This is subject to there being enough left after reimbursement to the lenders, for the costs to also be paid back to FS. Have any monies been deposited to the Court by MG yet for costs? General creditors: I do not believe that the lenders are “general creditors” at this point, my stance in this matter is that we are the ultimate secured lenders of the loans. The excess monies/"costs" will therefore be repaid to FS kitty, which will then be disbursed to the shareholders and suppliers to FS who are owed monies or have secured charges against FS. On consideration, a litigation funder might find the art loans a viable project to continue funding, as that would remove the cost implication from the Administrators and ultimately reduce their costs. One caveat, there were a few T&C’s in the last agreement between MG&FS that were not to my liking, and wont be to the liking of any litigation funder. At the time I could not fathom why FS had agreed, now all is becoming clearer.
|
|
locutus
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,059
Likes: 1,622
|
Post by locutus on Oct 25, 2019 8:10:04 GMT
Even if you're not in the art loans but are an FS investor, you should support further litigation. The expensive part is already done and if FS win, they will get their costs paid for which runs into hundreds of thousands already spent. This money will then be returned to the pot, along with significant fees from the loans themselves, for distribution to general creditors. It would be crazy to stop pursuing at this point given the cost/benefit. I only have minimal exposure to these loans, so my comments based upon the partial knowledge I have of the proceedings to date. Points to note: This is subject to there being enough left after reimbursement to the lenders, for the costs to also be paid back to FS. Have any monies been deposited to the Court by MG yet for costs? General creditors: I do not believe that the lenders are “general creditors” at this point, my stance in this matter is that we are the ultimate secured lenders of the loans. The excess monies/"costs" will therefore be repaid to FS kitty, which will then be disbursed to the shareholders and suppliers to FS who are owed monies or have secured charges against FS. On consideration, a litigation funder might find the art loans a viable project to continue funding, as that would remove the cost implication from the Administrators and ultimately reduce their costs. One caveat, there were a few T&C’s in the last agreement between MG&FS that were not to my liking, and wont be to the liking of any litigation funder. At the time I could not fathom why FS had agreed, now all is becoming clearer.
No monies have been deposited by MG for costs. However, he is a very wealthy individual from a very wealthy family and a fraud has occurred. Once the case concludes, the payment should return lender capital on the loans themselves including interest, pay for FS legal fees to date (returning many hundreds of thousands already spent) and also pay FS fees on the loans themselves which for £2m of loans will be significant. I agree that in general lenders are not creditors. However, there are a number of loans where lenders were let down by FS for various reasons and where lenders will indeed become creditors. Enabling that pot to grow as large as possible will help to offset lender losses in those loans when they are crystallised.
|
|
petrichory
Member of DD Central
Posts: 59
Likes: 207
|
Post by petrichory on Oct 25, 2019 13:58:08 GMT
Stuff I posted previously 2) Confirmation of intent to continue the litigation on the Lytham St Annes and Art loans. To comment on your point above; litigation will be hugely expensive for the art loans. Ultimate returns per investor over all their loans will depend on which loans each individual is in (I assume) and the money to pay for legal costs may well have to come from repayments of loans. Many folk not in the art loans would be unhappy to have administrators costs spent on this activity. I am in them a small way and would choose to accept a write off rather than part fund an expensive legal action. Legal action has already been hugely expensive and although I do not wish to get entangled in some sunk-cost fallacy debate, the truth is that: 1) Legal action would not have continued to such an advanced level if there was no prospect of recovery - FS has no obligation to score moral victories on our behalf, this was purely about money and the "fraud" aspect was only ever tangential at best. 2) The current position the case is in, as far as I can tell, has the fraudulent borrower backed into a corner with a possible extradition to the US looming large. 3) It cannot be denied that this one litigation alone probably expedited FS's insolvency by several months if not half a year or more. However, a discontinuation of proceedings at such a late stage would surely result in proceedings against the administrators for fiduciary negligence. The troublesome loans are as follows: - Loans where the borrower or FS management misappropriated money, allowed the borrower to abscond with parts of the security or in other ways lied about the ownership, value, condition or disposability of the asset. In all these cases, the borrower and management should be pursued for fraud AND AN EXIT FROM BANKRUPTCY DENIED! The Art Loans, Whitehaven and Lytham St Annes loans are the most obvious examples but in the C****** House loans as well, FS allowed the borrower to sell off part of the security that formed the foundation of the loan without any mechanism for this money to be returned to lenders. To deliberately depreciate the asset is outright fraud and should be pursued as such.
- Loans where FS never perfected the security, either deliberately or negligently - both the borrower and the former management should be pursued in county court and disbarred from holding directorship in a company, going beyond bankruptcy if fraud is proven. These would be the Burnley and Barnoldswick BTL loans (1764214549, 1079396222, 3139320212)
- Loans where FS perfected the security but purposely deceived lenders about the structure of the loan, deliberately misappropriating and misapplying funds to create a legal fiction to the detriment of lenders. These would be the 1st Charge (8010286828) and 2nd Charge (2861004433) Barnoldswick loans.
|
|
adrian77
Member of DD Central
Posts: 3,920
Likes: 4,145
|
Post by adrian77 on Oct 25, 2019 14:51:55 GMT
ref the art loans - I think this one really is not looking good - but I am no expert in this field. This chap is mentally unwell (course he is!) is bankrupt (on paper anyway) and not sure how relevant being from a wealthy family is - blood is thicker than water - maybe??? And he is in Spain which just happens to have a non-extradition treaty with the US - I just hope the family will pay up to stop him being extradited to the UK where the FBI can get their hands on him but I just don't know how likely this is.
Hopefully the administrator will give us speedy and honest information on this one unlike FS - that said he is going to be one very busy chappie!
|
|
iRobot
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,680
Likes: 2,477
|
Post by iRobot on Oct 25, 2019 15:39:06 GMT
Somewhat unfashionably, I'm a little concerned about the effect all this might have on certain borrowers, specifically those developers who have not yet drawn down the full facility agreed with FS. Those borrowers my well be placed in the very difficult position of not having the cash to finish a project and being unable to source the funds elsewhere (if they could have gone elsewhere they surely would have done so in the first place). This may well adversely affect repayment prospects on what might otherwise have been fairly solid loans It may be possible to find completion funding, the Administrators would need to take a view on the value in doing so. I noted a short while ago that one tranche of a dev loan seemingly went to a single investor. Could be that if sufficient 'whales' are tied to these dev loans, they may be amenable to continue funding if it improves the chances (and speed) of successful return on their whole investment. Alternatively, the Administrators could seek funding elsewhere.
|
|
am80
Posts: 13
Likes: 17
|
Post by am80 on Oct 28, 2019 7:28:54 GMT
Hi,
Does anybody know how administrator costs are likely to be apportioned to investors?
For example, if one investor has 100% cash in their account (meaning vey little work is required by administrators to send their monies back, eventually) and another investors investments loans repay 100% of its capital but requires a lot of work from the administrators; is this likely to have an impact on the % received back to both investors?
Thank you in advance
|
|
adrian77
Member of DD Central
Posts: 3,920
Likes: 4,145
|
Post by adrian77 on Oct 28, 2019 9:04:49 GMT
I only did it as a validation of my instinct/a warning to others - looks like of the 41 loans 39 have come good and only a very few if any others will do the same. Well, sadly, looks as if I was not a million miles away! Feel very sorry for those with substantial sums in this farce - also disgusted no word nor apology from the new directly who have just run away.
I think P2P has a good future but it will need new legislation and an effective FCA before I go back in.
This whole thing is just so depressing now I am glad it is coming to an end.
|
|
iRobot
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,680
Likes: 2,477
|
Post by iRobot on Oct 28, 2019 9:09:50 GMT
Hi, Does anybody know how administrator costs are likely to be apportioned to investors? For example, if one investor has 100% cash in their account (meaning vey little work is required by administrators to send their monies back, eventually) and another investors investments loans repay 100% of its capital but requires a lot of work from the administrators; is this likely to have an impact on the % received back to both investors? Thank you in advance At this very early stage, probably not even the Administrators themselves know that. One could speculate and draw inferences from other platform administrations, but the best thing to do, imo, is await a formal announcement by CG of the mandatory Administrator's Proposal at or before the 8 week point from the time of appointment, which is Weds 18th December by my calendar. That said, for those with cash on account, it's not an unreasonable expectation to have that sum 100% returned and sooner rather than later ( compared to invested funds, that it), as it should be sitting in a segregated pot and clearly identified. Unfortunately, in p2p land (and even in the real world), what does happen isn't always a mirror of what should happen. Just don't expect anything soon. Eight weeks for an announcement. Cash returns some point after that. That way anything sooner becomes a pleasant surprise.
|
|
bugs4me
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,845
Likes: 1,478
|
Post by bugs4me on Oct 28, 2019 11:49:22 GMT
'....I think P2P has a good future but it will need new legislation and an effective FCA before I go back in. This whole thing is just so depressing now I am glad it is coming to an end....' Well maybe a bright future but you've hit the nail on the head with 'an effective FCA' who have proven themselves time and time again over several years that they are anything but - they border on the 'incompetence' column in my book. There will be more platform failures although I suspect more than a couple have already given up even though their web sites may still be operating.
At least though the saga at FS is going to come to an end. The returns will probably be pennies in the pound possibly as we all know how administrators manage to carve up a carcass. But those pennies are better in my view than the continuous professional can-kicking engaged in by the platform where there were no pennies in the pound.
The Directors walking away - no doubt the future FCA regulations regarding the definition of a default may have played a part along with the apparent dereliction of duty towards lenders - especially the art loan.
|
|
|
Post by mrclondon on Oct 28, 2019 13:06:47 GMT
I do find it odd that whilst the website went down for only a short period whilst some of the functionality was disabled and the message re administration plus FAQ was added, and whilst partial repayments in the second half of last week were processed (as far as we can tell) normally, that there has been no email to investors concerning the administration.
Evidence of efficeincy in the background, but zero comms.
|
|
Mousey
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 6,768
|
Post by Mousey on Oct 28, 2019 13:17:32 GMT
Well Lendy went pop on 24/05/19 and the first e-mail I had mentioning the administration was 31/05/2019 so perhaps it's just something that companies don't do.
|
|
petrichory
Member of DD Central
Posts: 59
Likes: 207
|
Post by petrichory on Oct 28, 2019 13:36:33 GMT
To be fair, if I was a run-of-mill insolvency outfit without any detailed knowledge of the FS business model, I would not send out any emails or make any commitments about the running of the company without having a good look at the loan book and the corresponding ombudsman complaints first.
I believe, given the myriad issues here, it could take 2-3 weeks before we receive any sort of detailed email that does not simply re-state the FCA notice.
|
|
pip
Posts: 542
Likes: 725
|
Post by pip on Oct 28, 2019 15:48:29 GMT
To be fair, if I was a run-of-mill insolvency outfit without any detailed knowledge of the FS business model, I would not send out any emails or make any commitments about the running of the company without having a good look at the loan book and the corresponding ombudsman complaints first. I believe, given the myriad issues here, it could take 2-3 weeks before we receive any sort of detailed email that does not simply re-state the FCA notice. Agreed, surprised they found an insolvency company to take it on at all! If the administrators can't take any proceeds from the loans, then assuming there are very limited assets left at the company then what is their incentive? Add to that they will have the FCA sniffing around and hundreds of investors complaining. I can't imagine any administrator wants an action group set up which will look through everything they are doing.
|
|
bg
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,368
Likes: 1,929
|
Post by bg on Oct 28, 2019 16:20:18 GMT
To be fair, if I was a run-of-mill insolvency outfit without any detailed knowledge of the FS business model, I would not send out any emails or make any commitments about the running of the company without having a good look at the loan book and the corresponding ombudsman complaints first. I believe, given the myriad issues here, it could take 2-3 weeks before we receive any sort of detailed email that does not simply re-state the FCA notice. Agreed, surprised they found an insolvency company to take it on at all! If the administrators can't take any proceeds from the loans, then assuming there are very limited assets left at the company then what is their incentive? Add to that they will have the FCA sniffing around and hundreds of investors complaining. I can't imagine any administrator wants an action group set up which will look through everything they are doing. I know the loan book is a complete mess but even so I think it's highly unlikely that the total recovery from the hundreds of outstanding loans will not be sufficient to cover their fees (which will take priority before lenders receive any cash back).
|
|