Godanubis
Member of DD Central
Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
Posts: 2,011 
Likes: 1,013
|
Post by Godanubis on Nov 23, 2019 10:52:02 GMT
We still don’t know what will happen. It is not news worthy to say FS administration is doing a good job and proposals will lead to a substantial recovery.
Much more headline grabbing FS investors will loose everything “potentially “ with no hard evidence as to where the £104 million of assets suddenly disappear.
|
|
|
|
Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Nov 23, 2019 11:18:42 GMT
We still don’t know what will happen. It is not news worthy to say FS administration is doing a good job and proposals will lead to a substantial recovery. Much more headline grabbing FS investors will loose everything “potentially “ with no hard evidence as to where the £104 million of assets suddenly disappear. I think it may be a first for me with you, but I agree with some of that. It is an example of very lazy journalism much in the style this particular journalist does regularly. Almost as if he has used posts on this forum with a few bits of embellishment and offered it as fact. Simply filling column inches. Sadly he could with a bit of research and desire probably win himself a 'poundy' or whatever they call the award for excellence in this field. I suggest he gets his notepad sticks his press credentials in his hatband and seriously looks into the FCA role in these platforms demise. He might even do us a favour that way.
|
|
pip
Posts: 542
Likes: 725
|
Post by pip on Nov 23, 2019 13:46:20 GMT
We still don’t know what will happen. It is not news worthy to say FS administration is doing a good job and proposals will lead to a substantial recovery. Much more headline grabbing FS investors will loose everything “potentially “ with no hard evidence as to where the £104 million of assets suddenly disappear. I hope your are right. However if you are not and you sign up to the administrators proposals it’s goodnight to any chance of seeing your money again. The minute the proposals are approved the FCA will organize a party to celebrate that the investors who have lost money in the worst regulated company in their history has just voted to absolve them of any responsibility. In my opinion once those approvals are signed they will just say...speak to the administrator...and two years later you will get a letter from the administrator with the bad news. Any by then nobody will care about how you have been screwed over.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,722
Likes: 2,988
|
Post by michaelc on Nov 23, 2019 14:01:47 GMT
.... Sadly he could with a bit of research and desire probably win himself a 'poundy' or whatever they call the award for excellence in this field. ..... That's a good one !
|
|
ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,337
Likes: 11,562
|
Post by ilmoro on Nov 23, 2019 14:22:34 GMT
We still don’t know what will happen. It is not news worthy to say FS administration is doing a good job and proposals will lead to a substantial recovery. Much more headline grabbing FS investors will loose everything “potentially “ with no hard evidence as to where the £104 million of assets suddenly disappear. I hope your are right. However if you are not and you sign up to the administrators proposals it’s goodnight to any chance of seeing your money again. The minute the proposals are approved the FCA will organize a party to celebrate that the investors who have lost money in the worst regulated company in their history has just voted to absolve them of any responsibility. In my opinion once those approvals are signed they will just say...speak to the administrator...and two years later you will get a letter from the administrator with the bad news. Any by then nobody will care about how you have been screwed over. What in the administrators proposals says there is no chance of seeing your money again? All investors are agreeing to is for the administrators to take legal opinion to determine the status of the loans and if that doesnt resolve the issue to get the opinion of the Courts. Until that is resolve nothing can happen, the administrators have to follow the facts and the facts are, and I dont see any reason to doubt them as it is quite clear FS were not operating a standard P2P structure with separate corporate entity for trustee, that the position is not compliant with the regulations and correct legal forms for P2P lending.
Accepting the admin proposals does not absolve the FCA from responsibility. The platform was clearly not operating as per the regulatory requirements so whatever happens with the regards to that the FCA will still be reponsible for failing to ensure that it did, as they are responsible for failing to ensure Collateral was correctly regulated, Lendy was correctly regulated, LCF was correctly regulated, the banks, the brokers, the listed companies etc etc.
Proceeding the administration & pursuing the FCA are not mutually exclusive, one deals with the immediate situation, the other is a long term endeavour. I say long term as the FCA will park all compliants & representations while their investigation is ongoing (and probably longer if a criminal investigation is launched), and there is no recourse to law as the FCA have statutory immunity from being sued, limited political pressure as independent, and even if successful in the long term quite unlikely to actually yield much cash.
So personally I can see little benefit in your approach. Rejecting the proposals is unlikely to change the situtation, a different IP will quite likely reach the same conclusions and probably at higher cost (BDO anyone) and there is zero chance of the FCA riding to the rescue. So stalemate, nothing happens, the loan book deteriorates further or worse, FS goes into liquidation, the platform shuts down and investors are left in limbo.
|
|
pip
Posts: 542
Likes: 725
|
Post by pip on Nov 23, 2019 15:38:24 GMT
I hope your are right. However if you are not and you sign up to the administrators proposals it’s goodnight to any chance of seeing your money again. The minute the proposals are approved the FCA will organize a party to celebrate that the investors who have lost money in the worst regulated company in their history has just voted to absolve them of any responsibility. In my opinion once those approvals are signed they will just say...speak to the administrator...and two years later you will get a letter from the administrator with the bad news. Any by then nobody will care about how you have been screwed over. What in the administrators proposals says there is no chance of seeing your money] I didn’t say there is no chance of seeing your money again. If one votes for this proposal blindly (not sure what else somebody can call it) then one is putting huge faith in some recovery through this route. Based on the administrators report I see this as doubtful. Reasons many but especially....only the 5 loans issued after Sep 19 have investors as beneficiaries. I.e you are not legally owed a penny!
|
|
ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,337
Likes: 11,562
|
Post by ilmoro on Nov 23, 2019 16:06:46 GMT
What in the administrators proposals says there is no chance of seeing your money] I didn’t say there is no chance of seeing your money again. If one votes for this proposal blindly (not sure what else somebody can call it) then one is putting huge faith in some recovery through this route. Based on the administrators report I see this as doubtful. Reasons many but especially....only the 5 loans issued after Sep 19 have investors as beneficiaries. I.e you are not legally owed a penny! 'sign up to the administrators proposals it’s goodnight to any chance of seeing your money again' - does that not equate to no chance?
My point is that rejecting the proposals wont change the fact that lenders arent beneficiaries but accepting the proposals opens the route to change that fact via legal opinion or Court ruling. Firstly, if the docs are open to interpretation it could clarify certain points to frame that interpretation favourably. Alternatively, it may well be the fact that lenders arent benficiaries but legal opinion/court says that as it was clearly the intention that they were therefore they should be. This is not something the FCA can do.
What would illuminate the proposals better do you believe, within the realms of confidentiality, practicality etc? The FSAG legal advice seems to best illumination we are likely to get.
|
|
adrian77
Member of DD Central
Posts: 3,920
Likes: 4,145
|
Post by adrian77 on Nov 23, 2019 17:53:25 GMT
I was depressed when FS went up and after reading all these comments I am even more depressed!
It strikes me we have a choice of being partially stuffed or completely stuffed!
I am incredulous that the FCA approved these cowboys and now we are in the position of taking legal advice as to the status of OUR loans. I am also extremely concerned there is talk about the cash trail for monies invested not being "entirely clear" - know what I mean 'arry!
However we are where we are - what I would like to ask is "just how competent is this legal advice we are getting?" Clearly this is a complex and new area of law and I worry some smart-bottomed lawyer may contradict our legal advice (I am not criticising it) and this goes round in circles with solicitors being replaced with QCs cashing in whilst our proceeds go ever down!
I guess the thing to do is wait until we know the status of our loans which I really hope is higher than other creditors - not least R K who has a charge over the business - and if he got equal ranking with us I don't think it would go down very well!
If not then what incentive have the administrators got to do anything apart from liquidate our assets as quickly as possible, take their cut and not give a stuff about the amount realised as long as it covers their fee?
What an almighty horlicks - I am really sorry for those of us with large sums invested in what ,to me, looks like a glorified Ponzi scheme which has come crashing down as many of us said it would.
I need a drink!
|
|
agent69
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,056
Likes: 4,441
Member is Online
|
Post by agent69 on Nov 23, 2019 18:58:16 GMT
I am incredulous that the FCA approved these cowboys and now we are in the position of taking legal advice as to the status of OUR loans. Does anyone know if there are any form of guidance notes that outline what the FCA should do before granting approval (should do as opposed to what we might have liked them to do).
Also I assume that P2P platforms have their books audited anually? Should this not have picked up problems of this magnitude.
|
|
duck
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,885
Likes: 6,990
|
Post by duck on Nov 24, 2019 5:35:06 GMT
I am incredulous that the FCA approved these cowboys and now we are in the position of taking legal advice as to the status of OUR loans. Does anyone know if there are any form of guidance notes that outline what the FCA should do before granting approval (should do as opposed to what we might have liked them to do).
Also I assume that P2P platforms have their books audited anually? Should this not have picked problems of this magnitude.
This information is dotted about but a good starting point is here. Then you have to dig into the 'Handbook'. When approved 'light touch' regulation comes into play .......... Interesting question, I picked up on one point in the administrators report/times artices, I am asking questions of the FCA.
|
|
Godanubis
Member of DD Central
Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
Posts: 2,011
Likes: 1,013
|
Post by Godanubis on Nov 24, 2019 10:08:41 GMT
A lot of questions might be answered when the first of the group of P2P failures gets resolved. Collateral must be nearly resolved and the final results from that would I think be an indication of worst case returns before any action against FCA.
I still can’t see in any previous replies where the £104 of assets is lost.
|
|
|
|
Post by thetimesbusiness on Nov 25, 2019 13:44:27 GMT
The headline of the article is "fall of peer-to-peer lender turns up heat on FCA". A particular focus of the article is the alleged failures of the FCA here. Questions over how it was authorised given the apparent lack of governance and structure come ahead of issues such as the hole in the client account. The administrators' report does not need sensationalising, it depicts a complete car crash.
|
|
Mucho P2P
Member of DD Central
Posts: 946
Likes: 1,635
|
Post by Mucho P2P on Nov 30, 2019 21:22:40 GMT
The headline of the article is "fall of peer-to-peer lender turns up heat on FCA". A particular focus of the article is the alleged failures of the FCA here. Questions over how it was authorised given the apparent lack of governance and structure come ahead of issues such as the hole in the client account. The administrators' report does not need sensationalising, it depicts a complete car crash. Have you attempted to wake up the FCA and get their side of the story, or are their heads so buried in the sand they dont even here the phone call? Ideally, a far more interesting story would be the FCA side of this collapse, now for that I would pay to read it.
|
|
p2pfan
Member of DD Central
Full-Time Investor
Posts: 781 
Likes: 889
|
Post by p2pfan on Nov 30, 2019 22:08:00 GMT
Yes, the FCA is culpable, but it's primarily the P2P platforms themselves that are responsible and we lenders if we give our money to them without being laser-focused on how professionally run they are. All too often we invest via platforms as though it was the Wild West gold rush: I'm always astounded at how little due diligence most lenders do both on platforms and individual loans.
However, in all fairness, getting meaningful details from almost all P2P platforms in terms of their backend operational set-ups and their wind-down plans is like trying to get blood out of a stone.
I've always known most P2P platforms are run in a fairly shambolic way, but this Times article has opened my eyes. It's shocking how farcical FS record-keeping and administrative set-up was.
I'm sure many other P2P platforms will be the same as almost all of them, apart from exceptions like CP, are not run by the very highest calibre people in business and are more Del Boy type gambits that were trying to ride the internet wave.
|
|
Godanubis
Member of DD Central
Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
Posts: 2,011
Likes: 1,013
|
Post by Godanubis on Nov 30, 2019 23:44:40 GMT
Yes, the FCA is culpable, but it's primarily the P2P platforms themselves that are responsible and we lenders if we give our money to them without being laser-focused on how professionally run they are. All too often we invest via platforms as though it was the Wild West gold rush: I'm always astounded at how little due diligence most lenders do both on platforms and individual loans. However, in all fairness, getting meaningful details from almost all P2P platforms in terms of their backend operational set-ups and their wind-down plans is like trying to get blood out of a stone. I've always known most P2P platforms are run in a fairly shambolic way, but this Times article has opened my eyes. It's shocking how farcical FS record-keeping and administrative set-up was. I'm sure many other P2P platforms will be the same as almost all of them, apart from exceptions like CP, are not run by the very highest calibre people in business and are more Del Boy type gambits that were trying to ride the internet wave. If we haven’t all put everything into other P2P all HNW investors should start their own P2P with the knowledge gained from the venerable people here they should be able to actually run a profit making platform. Proper valuations with external buyers willing legally to offer to buy assets at a specific value which would then be the gross attainable value for loan purposes. They could buy all the defaulted assets at proper valuations less 50% and have an arrangement with teams of builders and off plan buyers. Everybody knows what was wrong and evaluated and managed properly there is always scope for a profit where there are minimum guaranteed returns and proper realistic margins. They become the king makers. Rather than the pawns. Technically lenders become share holders in each loan with a say in how they are managed and if what should be a rare occurrence they decide on defaults. Minimum 12 month loans with accurate verifiable monthly updates. So we just need some nice business models from those qualified to do them. If each potential borrower was to submit their request with a plan for scrutiny of the professional team and the great minds we have here for investigation then they should end up with the best of the best borrowers who require non mainstream but prudent financing. Get it right become a proper IPO not like FC and continue to reap the rewards with a Teresa May “strong and stable” growth.
|
|
