duck
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Post by duck on Nov 26, 2019 14:08:49 GMT
.... any compensation awarded by FCA/ICC would require us to have taken reasonable steps and going down the CC and Administrator route looks like reason to me. ...... Sorry to butt in again but the procedure when taking the FCA route is 1. Complaint to FCA about their actions. 2. When the FCA has responded to you regarding your complaint you can escalate to the CC if you are unsatisfied.* / ** 3. The CC has the powers to recommend the FCA makes an ex-gratia payment although the FCA can refuse to pay it. If they do they have to give written reasoning. *Note, as in the case of Col if a formal investigation is launched the complaint will be held until the end of the investigation at which point the FCA is duty bound to answer. ** You can progress to the CC prior to the complaint being answered but experience with Col suggests he will back the FCA if there is an ongoing investigation.
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Post by valueinvestor123 on Nov 26, 2019 14:27:54 GMT
What a brilliant set up. So I see may be all we can do is the equivalent of a class action by embarrassing the FCA people so they fear for their jobs and apply pressure for compensation from some form of political source, just as the banks were bailed out in 2008. .... Which is exactly what has been going on wrt Collateral for the past 20 months. In that case there were many serious (now documented) failures by the FCA, I'm not prepared to accept AB's continual use of 'unfortunate' when describing the circumstances and the failure of his organisation. Do you know by chance how big was Collateral's loan book at time of administration and how much investors received back after 20 months?
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squid
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Post by squid on Nov 26, 2019 14:39:38 GMT
duck can probably answer the first part of this question, but as a Collateral investor I can confirm that nothing has been returned to investors yet (to the best of my knowledge).
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Post by valueinvestor123 on Nov 26, 2019 14:52:06 GMT
duck can probably answer the first part of this question, but as a Collateral investor I can confirm that nothing has been returned to investors yet. Oh wow. Is this because nothing has been sold yet or because the admin costs outweigh the loans that were auctioned off? Or has nothing been auctioned off yet. I guess Lendy is doing quite well by comparison...they have returned some funds at least and it has only been a few months. I gather FS will be more like Coll rather than Lendy because of the lack of clarity of who the loans belong to (company or lenders)?
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shimself
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Post by shimself on Nov 26, 2019 15:30:25 GMT
duck can probably answer the first part of this question, but as a Collateral investor I can confirm that nothing has been returned to investors yet. Oh wow. Is this because nothing has been sold yet or because the admin costs outweigh the loans that were auctioned off? Or has nothing been auctioned off yet. I guess Lendy is doing quite well by comparison...they have returned some funds at least and it has only been a few months. I gather FS will be more like Coll rather than Lendy because of the lack of clarity of who the loans belong to (company or lenders)? Well I got 1 load repaid with interest after the demise Wake Green Rd
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on Nov 26, 2019 16:34:25 GMT
Which is exactly what has been going on wrt Collateral for the past 20 months. In that case there were many serious (now documented) failures by the FCA, I'm not prepared to accept AB's continual use of 'unfortunate' when describing the circumstances and the failure of his organisation. Do you know by chance how big was Collateral's loan book at time of administration and how much investors received back after 20 months? From the Administrators (BDO) proposal 21/06/2018: So c. £16.5m
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duck
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Post by duck on Nov 26, 2019 17:03:08 GMT
Do you know by chance how big was Collateral's loan book at time of administration and how much investors received back after 20 months? Difficult one to answer due to certain circumstances but @£17.5m is owed to investors (excluding interest) £0 repaid. The last figures I noted down from a BDO report was £1.6m in hand with BDO fees £1.25m but that was a long time ago, these figures are well out of date. Anyway, back to FS this isn't a Col thread.  EDIT 2 of us posting at the same time (I was off researching!), the first BDO report stated "Investor claims" of £17,538,816.66 which shows the level of uncertainly when compared to the figure quoted above by iRobot
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squid
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Post by squid on Nov 26, 2019 17:04:22 GMT
Wrong thread I know, but has anyone actually received any repayment form the Collateral administration? It was my understanding that nothing has yet been returned to investors, and I certainly haven't received anything. Not aware of the specific investment referred to by valueinvestor123. |
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Garage246
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Post by Garage246 on Nov 27, 2019 14:56:26 GMT
I am delighted to see FSAG is not taking anything off the table. Ilmoro's post gives the link to FSMA 2000 and it appears there IS a route to compensation via the FCA and Independent Complaints Commissioner (ICC) Also judicial review is possible. It appears we don't sue the FCA, but we can complain and request compensation and then escalate to ICC and or judicial review as appropriate So urgent question to FSAG. Are we sure that going down the CC route with the administrator does not prejudice our case with FCA/ICC? My judgement without the benefit of legal advice is that any compensation awarded by FCA/ICC would require us to have taken reasonable steps and going down the CC and Administrator route looks like reason to me. We could perhaps start a claim (class action claim if permitted) to FCA and quantity it later?? This sort of thing is awkward because it is hard to hire the right lawyer with the overview knowledge. FSAG tell us they have a P2P claims lawyer. Is he up to speed on FCA/ICC complaints and where is his interest - to advise re FCA/ICC or re administration? Could the FCA/ICC dimension lose him a client? Or increase his potential earnings? I feel FSAG need to be clearer about the legal strategy given this FCA/ICC possibility appears to have been unearthed and brought to light by ilmoro. My gut tells me this may be best dealt with by a London firm with perhaps easier access to the necessary channels. Of course a lot depends on advice as to whether the FCA have a defence that stands up, and our judgement as to what recovery can be made at what cost based on that advice. multiaccountmanager and I have had a chat off line. In summary, we are very aware that there are pathways open regarding FCA and the mechanisms to do this - there are examples of success in this and we have already made contact with people who have been there before to understand more in detail. It is basically as Ilmoro outlines at a high level. But don't get your hopes up as it takes years - the recent case I am aware of took 7 years to get to a conclusion. First you have to go through the normal recoveries route and administration - no way round this as the company has ultimately to be liquidated and creditors satisfied as far as possible according to administration law. Only at that point are the final losses incurred fully known. There may also be routes through to FSCS which need investigating (despite what is said around P2P). That is currently being looked at by the chaps over at LAG and will be relevant for us no doubt. Again no promises, it might come to nothing, but all avenues need to be pursued. However, I would caution about getting too far ahead of ourselves. First an foremost the strategy needs to be maximum recovery on the most cost effective and time effective basis - that's the quickest way to get as much of our money back in our pockets as possible. The immediate concern for us is to get a creditors committee formed with strong representation from lenders - if we don't get that outcome tomorrow we have our hands firmly tied behind out backs!
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criston
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Post by criston on Nov 27, 2019 16:57:17 GMT
I note some have mentioned loans have been repaid since the administrators took over.
Does the payment then show in your account as available funds, as they would have done before administration ?
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Post by FSAG Forum on Nov 27, 2019 18:03:17 GMT
I note some have mentioned loans have been repaid since the administrators took over. Does the payment then show in your account as available funds, as they would have done before administration ? Yes.
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Post by multiaccountmanager on Nov 27, 2019 18:40:58 GMT
.... any compensation awarded by FCA/ICC would require us to have taken reasonable steps and going down the CC and Administrator route looks like reason to me. ...... Sorry to butt in again but the procedure when taking the FCA route is 1. Complaint to FCA about their actions. 2. When the FCA has responded to you regarding your complaint you can escalate to the CC if you are unsatisfied.* / ** 3. The CC has the powers to recommend the FCA makes an ex-gratia payment although the FCA can refuse to pay it. If they do they have to give written reasoning. *Note, as in the case of Col if a formal investigation is launched the complaint will be held until the end of the investigation at which point the FCA is duty bound to answer. ** You can progress to the CC prior to the complaint being answered but experience with Col suggests he will back the FCA if there is an ongoing investigation. Thank you very much Duck. Please note the context of my comment - it was preceded by "my gut judgement without the benefit of legal advice" [I'd appreciate you referring to ICC - the Independent Complaints Commisioner - rather than CC which can be taken to be Creditors Comittee.] Just to clear up a loose end, do you agree with garage24 that it seems the Administration has to be finalised before any FCA/ICC compensation can be quantified? Or do you find that a compensation payment can be made when it is clear that a particular loan's loss has been realised with no prospect of further recovery from the Administration process.
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duck
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Post by duck on Nov 27, 2019 19:54:24 GMT
Or do you find that a compensation payment can be made when it is clear that a particular loan's loss has been realised with no prospect of further recovery from the Administration process. The administration/receivership has to be completed so that an overall crystalised loss can be calculated, it would get very messy if ex-gratia payments were based on a loan by loan basis. The argument that has been put to the FCA and Complaints Commissioner (also mentioned in the MP's letter) is that investors in Col should be put back in the position they were in before they invested. The reasoning behind this is that Col should never have been allowed (by the FCA) to trade so investors would not have been able to invest a single 1p. Therefore for Col there is no other way to calculate the required figure without waiting for the completion of the liquidation.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Nov 27, 2019 22:07:38 GMT
Or do you find that a compensation payment can be made when it is clear that a particular loan's loss has been realised with no prospect of further recovery from the Administration process. The administration/receivership has to be completed so that an overall crystalised loss can be calculated, it would get very messy if ex-gratia payments were based on a loan by loan basis. The argument that has been put to the FCA and Complaints Commissioner (also mentioned in the MP's letter) is that investors in Col should be put back in the position they were in before they invested.The reasoning behind this is that Col should never have been allowed (by the FCA) to trade so investors would not have been able to invest a single 1p. Therefore for Col there is no other way to calculate the required figure without waiting for the completion of the liquidation. So if I invested a load of money in Col, received a load of interest, but sold out because I could see the sticky brown stuff was about to hit the fan ..... your'e saying I should give the interest back in order that I was in the position that I was in before investing?
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Post by multiaccountmanager on Nov 28, 2019 0:08:22 GMT
Or do you find that a compensation payment can be made when it is clear that a particular loan's loss has been realised with no prospect of further recovery from the Administration process. The administration/receivership has to be completed so that an overall crystalised loss can be calculated, it would get very messy if ex-gratia payments were based on a loan by loan basis. The argument that has been put to the FCA and Complaints Commissioner (also mentioned in the MP's letter) is that investors in Col should be put back in the position they were in before they invested. The reasoning behind this is that Col should never have been allowed (by the FCA) to trade so investors would not have been able to invest a single 1p. Therefore for Col there is no other way to calculate the required figure without waiting for the completion of the liquidation. Yes, if made on a loan by loan basis, I see that lenders would (hopefully!) be receiving a stream of payments. Some batch processing of complaints may be possible. All very political indeed and worthy of deep thought at a later date. At least FS lenders will not be pioneering the compensation claim route too much (again - hopefully!). FSAG were able to hit the ground at least jogging if not running in some ways regarding the Administration. Those who are trailblazing appear to have a challenging task from the sound of it.
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