agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jan 29, 2021 17:50:54 GMT
I sort of agree with that, but this is not an entirely normal situation or normal contracts. If we understand correctly, the UK taxpayer made quite significant investment into production capacity in the UK, and made that investment commitment early, as well as giving AZ the commercial cover of substantive orders much earlier (it partly had to do so, because UK capacity for vaccine production was, I believe, not far off non-existent (a market we had retreated from)). So this area is not just normal commercial contracting considerations. I also think someone posted on here that the UK investment into vaccine (I guess trials, research and expansion of manufacturing) has been 7x that of anyone else on a per capita basis.
There is an argument that you should first reap the benefits of where you decided to place your bets.
The UK has also I think contributed to the global vaccine effort 'above its weight' in other ways, particularly I think through both research but also through trials (NHS patient data being a major enabler). It is also clear that ultimately the UK is intending to use an surplus in its orders to supply less well of parts of the world.
I agree that vaccine wars are not what we need right now. But to coin a phrase, its looking a bit like this could get to the "well you started it" phase.
no we didn't, yes you did you invaded Poland.
Oh for the good old days, pre Brexit and Covid, when a man could squander his retirement income on wine, women and exotic holidays (never was much good at singing).
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Jan 29, 2021 17:52:17 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 17:53:36 GMT
While the UK press is all talking about Az the European press is furious with Pfizer as that is not hitting their promises either (who knew making stuff was difficult??) and most countries are slowing down jabs to maintain the 3 week gap. Germans are especially upset that Pfizer left the Bloc before it was approved for sale inside the Bloc. (how dare they sell stuff we don't want...)
UK government keeping its head down.
BTW AZ doesn't make any money out of the EU deal. Great contract guys, think about it.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Jan 29, 2021 18:08:56 GMT
I am very interested to learn the views of Remainers here. Are they treating this as a completely separate issue to brexit? And if so are they minded to side against the Commission? Or are they more likely to agree with the Commission's point of view and argue that the AZN facilities in the UK should divert vaccine to the EU and at the same time agree with the export controls soon to be put in place on vaccine production in the EU? I'm not minded to side against any party, personally. The last 5 years have been an absolute embarrassment for which I (personally) would attribute very little blame to the EU and nearly all to the UK. Brexit probably hasn't helped the situation, as the EU is now more minded to be obstinate in the controls it can enforce against countries outside of its borders. Likewise, we are probably less likely to be cooperative. Nonetheless, I don't particularly sense that this is the usual (of late) UK foul-up. I'm perfectly willing to be convinced this is the EU's issue more than ours. Above said, whoever's real problem it is, I would much rather EU/UK and companies thereof co-operate, compromise, and negotiate towards a solution rather than this nonsense. I think Marina Hyde has it right " The EU’s meltdown at the UK is one of those rows that turns you into the grimace-face emoji. I’ve now held that expression for three straight days, presumably along with the other 500 million-odd citizens who just want to get home but whose parents are fighting on the pub floor. Guys … please? PLEASE"edit: Oh, and 'remainer' or not, Macron really can be a knob sometimes.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jan 29, 2021 18:10:26 GMT
how is this going to work out in practice I wonder ? Might pose problems for the UK's access to the Pfizer jab, which of course has already been put into many people's arms who are waiting on a second dose.
Is the UK going to waive its rights to some deliveries of UK produced Azn in exchange for deliveries of Pfizer ?
My uninformed random guess.
AZ UK contract was drafted under UK law by UK lawyers because ... well... we know what Boris & chums think about the jurisdiction of European courts.
AZ EU contract was drafted under Belgian law because it likely made sense for both parties.
Left hand most likely did not talk much to the right hand, and there may have been a degree of over-commiting going on ... on both sides of the Channel.
Added to which, given the UK government propensity to suddenly find large sums of money down the back of the sofa (cf. PPE etc. etc.), it would not surprise me if Boris & chums offered AZ UK an unholy sum for all or substantial exclusivity over UK factory output. This might also be why UK govt is hiding behind "security" as the reason they can't or won't disclose details.
What should happen going forward ?
UK should stop the vaccine nationalism and allow AZ UK to supply a proportion of output to the EU.
Failure to do otherwise is not a good look on the world stage, especially as the UK has already been reaching ever lower lows in loosing all that soft power goodwill it built up over the decades and centuries.
The UK should respect the fact that AZ is a global company.
I think your average person on the street (i.e. not brexit loonies) would agree that any customer of a global company, whether UK, EU or otherwise, would make the reasonable assumption that a global company would use its global resources to fill orders. Such is the modern interconnected world that we live in.
I wonder how generous the EU would be with the vaccine to the UK if the situation was reversed and they had plenty of output in the EU and the UK manufacture was badly behind? And I wonder what the tone of this thread would be in that case. AZ are also manufacturing in India for poorer nations
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Jan 29, 2021 18:28:49 GMT
I wonder how generous the EU would be with the vaccine to the UK if the situation was reversed and they had plenty of output in the EU and the UK manufacture was badly behind? All the millions of doses of the Pfizer vaccine supplied to the UK so far were manufactured in the EU (Puurs, Belgium).
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jan 29, 2021 18:40:27 GMT
My uninformed random guess.
AZ UK contract was drafted under UK law by UK lawyers because ... well... we know what Boris & chums think about the jurisdiction of European courts.
AZ EU contract was drafted under Belgian law because it likely made sense for both parties.
Left hand most likely did not talk much to the right hand, and there may have been a degree of over-commiting going on ... on both sides of the Channel.
Added to which, given the UK government propensity to suddenly find large sums of money down the back of the sofa (cf. PPE etc. etc.), it would not surprise me if Boris & chums offered AZ UK an unholy sum for all or substantial exclusivity over UK factory output. This might also be why UK govt is hiding behind "security" as the reason they can't or won't disclose details.
What should happen going forward ?
UK should stop the vaccine nationalism and allow AZ UK to supply a proportion of output to the EU.
Failure to do otherwise is not a good look on the world stage, especially as the UK has already been reaching ever lower lows in loosing all that soft power goodwill it built up over the decades and centuries.
The UK should respect the fact that AZ is a global company.
I think your average person on the street (i.e. not brexit loonies) would agree that any customer of a global company, whether UK, EU or otherwise, would make the reasonable assumption that a global company would use its global resources to fill orders. Such is the modern interconnected world that we live in.
I wonder how generous the EU would be with the vaccine to the UK if the situation was reversed and they had plenty of output in the EU and the UK manufacture was badly behind? And I wonder what the tone of this thread would be in that case.AZ are also manufacturing in India for poorer nations I'm actually surprised how extreme one or two are. They hate the government and brexit so much they'd rather see the UK reduce the rate of vaccine consumption. Well, on one level, we are all people so yeah, maybe we should just donate the lot to the WHO for re-distribution... I had thought and I still think judging from who I call the sensible Remainers on this thread - perhaps the majority - that actually whilst they still regret very much brexit and while they don't like Leavers trumpeting this as a great success, they don't believe the EC is being reasonable. Perhaps I'm wrong and views are just _that_ entrenched.
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jan 29, 2021 18:40:46 GMT
EU has activated Article 16 (the 'nuclear option') of NI Protocol to block imports of vaccine from the EU - how ironic - the EU has created a border in the island of Ireland.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jan 29, 2021 18:47:53 GMT
I wonder how generous the EU would be with the vaccine to the UK if the situation was reversed and they had plenty of output in the EU and the UK manufacture was badly behind? All the millions of doses of the Pfizer vaccine supplied to the UK so far were manufactured in the EU (Puurs, Belgium). But there was no problem with supply at that point (not sure if the EU were even using it), but the EU may block further supplies if they want it apparently.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Jan 29, 2021 18:52:07 GMT
EU has activated Article 16 (the 'nuclear option') of NI Protocol to block imports of vaccine from the EU - how ironic - the EU has created a border in the island of Ireland. From early commentary on Twitter, it seems clear we are heading for a spell of: 1) <the former> Brexiters now saying that this episode demonstrates what an awful lot the EU are and what a good idea it was that we left. 2) <the former> Remainers now saying that this episode demonstrates exactly why we shouldn't have left because look at this now. 3) Both of the former making extremely unpleasant comments to each other because they don't see it the same way. I just can't be arsed with this any more frankly.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jan 29, 2021 18:52:39 GMT
EU has activated Article 16 (the 'nuclear option') of NI Protocol to block imports of vaccine from the EU - how ironic - the EU has created a border in the island of Ireland. But how will they implement this? Are the Garda going to search every vehicle before it crosses the border?
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mrk
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Post by mrk on Jan 29, 2021 19:03:40 GMT
I do think the EU has handled the vaccines situation badly, by leaving deals late and not investing enough. This article sums it up: COVID-19 vaccine: What are the real reasons behind the EU's slow rollout?
Now they're having to resort to defensive measures, like export controls (albeit temporarily until the end of March) that have rightly been criticised by many, including e.g. the International Chamber of Commerce. But on the specific point of AstraZeneca supplies, it does seem fair to me that reduced production should affect all countries in equal proportion.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jan 29, 2021 19:26:24 GMT
I do think the EU has handled the vaccines situation badly, by leaving deals late and not investing enough. This article sums it up: COVID-19 vaccine: What are the real reasons behind the EU's slow rollout?
Now they're having to resort to defensive measures, like export controls (albeit temporarily until the end of March) that have rightly been criticised by many, including e.g. the International Chamber of Commerce. But on the specific point of AstraZeneca supplies, it does seem fair to me that reduced production should affect all countries in equal proportion. Why?
If the EU believe that AZ are contractually obliged to send vaccine manufactured in the UK to the EU market, then don't have a load of EU politicians in front of the cameras spouting hot air and waffle, take AZ to court and have the might of the legal system force them to comply. In reality we all know this won't happen, because the last thing the EU want is Harry the Bastard going through the contract with a fine tooth combe, pointing out what a crock of sh*t it is.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jan 29, 2021 19:39:49 GMT
I do think the EU has handled the vaccines situation badly, by leaving deals late and not investing enough. This article sums it up: COVID-19 vaccine: What are the real reasons behind the EU's slow rollout?
Now they're having to resort to defensive measures, like export controls (albeit temporarily until the end of March) that have rightly been criticised by many, including e.g. the International Chamber of Commerce. But on the specific point of AstraZeneca supplies, it does seem fair to me that reduced production should affect all countries in equal proportion. Interesting comments from a German university Lecturer:
“On best effort, the CEO of AstraZeneca was right,” says Gustav Oertzen, a lecturer at Leuphana University in Germany.
“This is all about ‘best reasonable effort’. No clear commitments for delivery, no recognisable penalties, unless in the redacted part."
Oertzen added that he had "no idea what von der Leyen means by 'crystal clear commitments' based on this contract.”
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jan 29, 2021 19:46:23 GMT
EU has activated Article 16 (the 'nuclear option') of NI Protocol to block imports of vaccine from the EU - how ironic - the EU has created a border in the island of Ireland. They may have done that without consulting the Irish government. They certainly did it without consulting the UK government.
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