pip
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Post by pip on Jan 29, 2020 9:47:53 GMT
Pensioners here are still far richer than millions of others and should never invest in a single investment type. We are far far too selfish and always look to blame others for our mistakes or accuse people of deliberately failing when they are just trying to get on in life. Yes prosecute the criminals but don’t criminalise the those simply make errors. The warnings were everywhere P2P is not a risk free investment and like all in life rewards are based on risk. That is all associated risks including fraud and mismanagement Basically it is a gamble you pay your money you take your chance with the proviso you would never loose all your money on a primary or bling loan. Just look at the bigger picture and stop fixating on only the negative facts. Thousands of people make money and thousands don’t it depends on your own choices as to individual exposure if you only invested 1% you can only loose 1% and as far as I can see if you only invested 1% in P2P or FS in particular you would have lost less than you would have made from repayments. You still have 99% elsewhere Again I ask anyone to show an overall loss from P2P properly diversified. Nobody to date has done this and that I am sure includes those on this thread. Godanubis based on your track record of wild claims of your returns on FS and then denial of the issues and now diversion tactics, if you think you have one shred of credibility left with anybody I suspect you are mistaken:
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Post by brightspark on Jan 29, 2020 11:31:17 GMT
Wild claims? With a large portfolio, risks can be greater, but so can the means of spreading the risk. With a small portfolio risk is more concentrated and with it goes the possibility of catastrophic loss. When p to p emerged from the mainstream the possibility of platform failure was viewed as remote and with it there was a presumption that platforms as businesses would not financially engineer their own collapse. How times have changed! Again for many, loans were small - £20 aliquots on FC were the norm. Now small investors with relatively large pension pots can risk considerable sums and not surprisingly there are howls of anguish when the gullible are left without shirts on their backs.
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on Jan 29, 2020 12:01:45 GMT
The above comments about risks and gambles are correct in a general sense but totally irrelevant here.
What we are complaining about is the appalling failure of FS and also the FCA - looks like in one example alone we have lost £2.3m art loan plus fees less a very small potential litigation rights sale. Even if these paintings were fakes FS had no excuse for not taking additional security instead of an IOU whilst half-cut over lunch! MrC has done excellent research and unearthed some interesting individuals who sounded more alarm bells than you could shake a stick at - but what did FS do - lend these clowns millions and millions of our money on fantastical investments with highly misleading projected valuation and false accounts of actual progress . These clowns then bled huge amounts of money of their FS loans, wound-up their developments (without I suspect any audit trail of the FS money) and are laughing all the way to the bank
This outfit was described as Funding SECURE and there is ZERO excuse for how they behaved so I don't appreciate being lectured as if this my fault for not understanding how investments work!
Have re-done my maths - worst scenario for me is a £150 loss but hopefully a very small net gain - clearly a lot less than some others on this platform - most of whom I really very sorry for and I really don't blame them but FS 100% for the overall result.
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rocky1
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Post by rocky1 on Jan 29, 2020 13:04:31 GMT
along with FCA authorised and regulated badge HMRC allowed these scammers to operate IFISA and tempt many people to part with a big chunk of their savings in the hope of a bit better later life.p2p IFISAs read the T&Cs very carefully.as we are all finding out 70% RICs valuations,secured loans,and all the BS mean nothing, once these platforms/borrowers have your money you go well down the list.
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Post by defaultinator5000 on Jan 29, 2020 13:35:59 GMT
Wild claims? With a large portfolio, risks can be greater, but so can the means of spreading the risk. With a small portfolio risk is more concentrated and with it goes the possibility of catastrophic loss. When p to p emerged from the mainstream the possibility of platform failure was viewed as remote and with it there was a presumption that platforms as businesses would not financially engineer their own collapse. How times have changed! Again for many, loans were small - £20 aliquots on FC were the norm. Now small investors with relatively large pension pots can risk considerable sums and not surprisingly there are howls of anguish when the gullible are left without shirts on their backs. I will admit that I was inexperienced and overly optimistic and bit off more than I could chew in a couple of the loans I invested in. These are going to be a 100% loss and serves me right for jumping into higher tranches or sketchy property developments. However, for a large part of the FS' portfolio which comprised of "safe as houses" pawn loans, there is absolutely no justification for the gargantuan losses the lenders are facing. FS, under the FCA's approval, made so many breaches of trust between themselves and the investors by:
- securing the loans against grossly inflated valuations - deliberately not disclosing loans connected to the same borrower - lying about securing charges against certain assets which they didn't do - lying about having assets in their possesion, which they didn't have - continuously lying about the state of affairs, the actual progress of development loans, planning applications and refinancing - etc etc. If I take £10,000 to a casino and wager it on the roulette table once (limiting my bets to <1% of my bank, as a certain person keeps banging on and on about), I will on average walk away with £9730, a £270 loss, playing a game with well-known negative expected value. The investors who invested £10,000 in FS, diversified across all loans, are expecting to get £5000 back in the most optimistic scenario, and probably far less (as I understand, over 80% of the loan book is defaulted at the moment). So how can this be considered normal and within reason when most FS investors are wishing they rather gambled their money away in a casino than invested in FS?
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on Jan 29, 2020 14:12:32 GMT
well said that man!
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Post by banffy on Jan 29, 2020 14:21:39 GMT
godanubis said:
"The warnings were everywhere P2P is not a risk free investment and like all in life rewards are based on risk"
godanubis, I think you are talking a lot of  , when i invested it was not clear to me as I'm just some normal guy that saw all this security and thought all was good probably the same with a lot of simliar people and even the well knowledgable folk on P2P got caught so don't tell me the warnings were everywhere, mabe a little later down the line the warnings were there but too late as nobody could sell at that point. 6 month loans that then got stuck into years and I could not do anything about it. I'm sure there were people worse than me and I had no scooby about P2P apart from reading how secure everything was and that they had assets here and assets there. The whole lot in my opinion was a huge SCAM and the goverment needs to step in here and sort out this whole mess, Collateralthis, Lendy & Funding Secure, these Directors need to be Jailed for the mess they have caused. I know what I want to do to these people and I have the means but unfortunately it would cost me life. Plenty SA80 in my Armoury and..........., This mess has cost me to sign on and serve another 18 Month when I was supposed to retire this year having already served 39 years in the Armed Forces, so don't tell me about warnings being everywhere. Rant over!
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on Jan 29, 2020 14:48:05 GMT
one minute we have a member extolling the virtues of FS stating how he makes 23%+ interest due to his tactics which were clearly beyond most of us and now he is stating this is our fault for not heeding the warnings- bit disingenuous if you ask me. As I said we all expected a few loans to go south as that is business but we did not expect to hear constant reports of lying, cheating and gross incompetence which looks like is going to cost us anywhere from £20-40m or even more which out of an £80m loan book of "secure assets" beggars belief
I am bloody furious to hear about pensioners etc losing money due to these muppets ; also why should people like the soldier above have to do another 18 months after serving our country for 39 years - not being personal he be must be at least well into early 50s and would probably prefer retirement after dedicated service to a tough life (damn sure I would!)
I hope the media report these characters for what they really are and sooner or later karma catches up with them.
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Post by westcountryfunder on Jan 29, 2020 15:03:40 GMT
Again I ask anyone to show an overall loss from P2P properly diversified. Nobody to date has done this and that I am sure includes those on this thread. Godanubis based on your track record of wild claims of your returns on FS and then denial of the issues and now diversion tactics, if you think you have one shred of credibility left with anybody I suspect you are mistaken: Can't be bothered to look up what are Godanubis's "wild claims", but maybe we should allow him just a bit of a break. Just checked my FS returns. My account peaked at £14k in April 2017, but a lot less now. If I write off my entire remaining balances, my gross simple interest return works out at minus 0.7%pa since December 2014. If I assume 100% recovery on what is remaining it works out at 12.9%pa. So perhaps I'll end up with say 5 or 6%. Reckon that's not too bad compared with cash (but not really worth the effort). However, I am not seeking to excuse the FS shambles, exacerbated by the FCA.
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09dolphin
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Post by 09dolphin on Jan 29, 2020 19:36:02 GMT
It seems to me that people who "invested" 3+ years ago in FS are likely to have profits that will mainly protect them from an overall loss. People who have "invested" in FS in the past 2-3 years are likely to have an overall loss and people who "invested" in the 12 months before administration will be the biggest losers.
What I find really distressing is that some Forumites appear to find this acceptable.
What does it say about out morality when it becomes acceptable in our society for people to "invest" in an apparently respectably valued asset by a "professional" to find that is now worth only 50% or less of the valuation. How is that actually possible?
What does it say about our government when the professional body which is supposed to regulate financial trading appears to have failed so abysmally?
Frankly I am appalled by the failure of governance but perhaps I should just shrug and say this is the society we now live in.
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Godanubis
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Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
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Post by Godanubis on Jan 29, 2020 23:01:52 GMT
All huge losses are still just speculation it will be years down the line before the final picture emerges.
To date the only statistics are those provided and that is not a loss taking the platform as a whole.
Take a small £2500 and put £25 in every loan available from the date you started you will not have lost in the last 2-3 years there a just not sufficient loans with a loss to make this happen.
I’m happy to apologise if someone can post their snapshot of results to show actual loss over actual paid interest not defaulted or predictions actual facts.
On one account with £100000 I have £4680 in capital loss and £17689 in interest this does not reflect my earnings as most of my profit came from buying and selling at a profit. If this was a primary account the loss would offset tax due on interest.
As loans fail or repay this will change and that will give a final outcome.
Those that comment with real figures show overall small profit to date. This may change I suspect not to the disastrous levels quoted.
Claims against unrealistic valuations will down the line mitigate some loss for the small % net capital loss loans.
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Godanubis
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Anubis is known as the god of death and is the oldest and most popular of ancient Egyptian deities.
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Post by Godanubis on Jan 29, 2020 23:06:28 GMT
It seems to me that people who "invested" 3+ years ago in FS are likely to have profits that will mainly protect them from an overall loss. People who have "invested" in FS in the past 2-3 years are likely to have an overall loss and people who "invested" in the 12 months before administration will be the biggest losers. What I find really distressing is that some Forumites appear to find this acceptable. What does it say about out morality when it becomes acceptable in our society for people to "invest" in an apparently respectably valued asset by a "professional" to find that is now worth only 50% or less of the valuation. How is that actually possible? What does it say about our government when the professional body which is supposed to regulate financial trading appears to have failed so abysmally? Frankly I am appalled by the failure of governance but perhaps I should just shrug and say this is the society we now live in. Loans in last 12 months a few have paid back since administration and paid full interest in all but a few if you check the excellent reporting in another thread. Certainly the deficiencies in the management and some professionals are unacceptable I would just like to expose the myth that it was all a conspiracy to steal our money and borrowers collectively put themselves into liquidation or bankruptcy voluntarily.
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on Jan 30, 2020 8:41:53 GMT
And what about the huge % capital losses in the system I hope successful action can be taken but I have yet to be convinced any can actually be taken with a realistic chance of success.
The land in Lytham St Annes does state it is based upon accurate information about title etc being conveyed - yeah right and also any contamination would reduce the estimate.
Formby has a valuation of £440K for the land so we can forget legal action over that one.
Not so sure about the Tower Block but again they state they have not done a structural survey
I also note there was an application to demolish it so either somebody was stupid to think about destroying a sound building investment or knew what they were doing!
I really hope some of the valuers can be sued and I am proven wrong but as I see it nothing has changed and the loan book is still a pile of pants and I blame FS for over-selling these uncompleted developments as much as the valuers e.g. why the hell did they not get a structural survey done! Pound to a penny some of these developments will show structural problems...time for work.
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on Feb 3, 2020 16:25:34 GMT
just read on fsag forum some chap - (like his honesty!) stated he was on course to lose a six figure sum with these muppets...I don't think he will be the only one. FS never told us about linked property/art loans etc - I thought I was diversifying with the art but it was the same clown and ditto some of my property loans.
Next auction to watch is the business centre l unit in Liverpool onThursday - this looks OK to me but I think there is something badly wrong here so will be interesting to see how it goes...
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pfffill
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Post by pfffill on Feb 3, 2020 16:51:22 GMT
just read on fsag forum some chap - (like his honesty!) stated he was on course to lose a six figure sum with these muppets...I don't think he will be the only one. FS never told us about linked property/art loans etc - I thought I was diversifying with the art but it was the same clown and ditto some of my property loans. Next auction to watch is the business centre l unit in Liverpool onThursday - this looks OK to me but I think there is something badly wrong here so will be interesting to see how it goes... I made the novice mistake when first I put money into FS (invested is too sophisticated a word for this mess) of buying a second charge on a property which subsequently went belly up, paying me back about 20% and no interest. I subsequently checked that all my remaining loans were first charge, property only, no caravans or speedboats, not to mention art. In spite of that, and in the light of what we now know of the incompetence, chicanery and possibly downright fraud that went on at FS, I expect to recover only a modest percentage of my capital and interest; see what has happened historically in administrations such as ours, and weep.
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, when i invested it was not clear to me as I'm just some normal guy that saw all this security and thought all was good probably the same with a lot of simliar people and even the well knowledgable folk on P2P got caught so don't tell me the warnings were everywhere, mabe a little later down the line the warnings were there but too late as nobody could sell at that point. 6 month loans that then got stuck into years and I could not do anything about it. I'm sure there were people worse than me and I had no scooby about P2P apart from reading how secure everything was and that they had assets here and assets there. The whole lot in my opinion was a huge SCAM and the goverment needs to step in here and sort out this whole mess, Collateralthis, Lendy & Funding Secure, these Directors need to be Jailed for the mess they have caused. I know what I want to do to these people and I have the means but unfortunately it would cost me life. Plenty SA80 in my Armoury and..........., 